D&D (2024) Thief Rogue / True Strike

[Oofta]

Related, if tangential, is the fact that the Arcane Trickster's Mage Hand is meaningfully better than any one else's. There are reasons to give the Rogue a perk not generally available to dedicated spellcasters.

Which doesn't change the fact that there is no action required to use the scroll itself. The action required is to cast the spell which could be a magic bonus action, an action, or 10 minutes depending on the spell.
The scroll is only a container for the spell, there is no transitive property of the spell to the scroll.

There may be some non spell scrolls that take a magic action to activate, a spell scroll is not one of them.

 

[I'm A Banana]

Related, if tangential, is the fact that the Arcane Trickster's Mage Hand is meaningfully better than any one else's. There are reasons to give the Rogue a perk not generally available to dedicated spellcasters.

As a subclass feature? Sure.

But not buried in some arcane corner of an ambiguous multiclassing interaction. Exceedingly poor design if you hide your best options under a few layers of optional rules that aren't clearly explained or signposted. WotC is capable of mistakes, but this would be something truly disappointing in its presentation.

 

[Kobold Stew]

As a subclass feature? Sure.

But not buried in some arcane corner of an ambiguous multiclassing interaction.

I am still thinking of Fast Hands as a subclass feature as well. Until there is a clear consensus on how that works, talking about multiclassing is (to me) beside the point. (And, frankly, I think you are making the best case possible for the view I am now disagreeing with.)

Possibly, the whole matter will be solved, clearly, by any discussion of scrolls in the DMG. For now, we're doing our best with what we have. You may be right, and if so, I'll be happy. But given what we see in the PHB, I have to believe that reading a scroll with a spell on it, which casts that spell under special circumstances (the material components are paid when the scroll is scribed, for instance) is using the Magic Action: it's not any of the other actions listed, and i don't believe it's some separate thing that is not an action.

And the Fast Hands ability lets a Thied do what is normally an action (a Magic Action, in my view) as a Bonus Action.

Exceedingly poor design if you hide your best options under a few layers of optional rules that aren't clearly explained or signposted. WotC is capable of mistakes, but this would be something truly disappointing in its presentation.

Arguably not as egregious as failing to spell out how nick works with light weapons, and leaving it to be inferred from the interaction of three or four relevant class features. Yes, there are failures or presentation I think they should have caught. That doesn't prevent us coming to a consensus view of what the rules say (even if it's not what they should say).

When this thread started, I think I agreed with your position (i.e. I agreed with what I see your position to be). But I've been persuaded that's not what the book says.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Yes and as I have said several times Fast Hands is only usable on a spell scroll if the spell in question has an action casting time, because those others do not use a Magic Action.

Which does not matter.

 

[Mistwell]

But is the True Strike trick really worth it? I mean, you need scrolls of True Strike, and while they are cheap, it does take not only money, but time to craft them. This doesn't sound like it would ever be something that you can do every round of combat. So letting a Thief who took a multiclass to actually be able to cast a scroll and was able to acquire/make scrolls to occasionally set up for a bonus action sneak attack to allow a reaction sneak attack doesn't seem all that egregious- at this point it's not even an exploit, given all the setup required.

There has to be an easier way to do this sort of thing.

This is for sure the biggest challenge this build faces. And because gold gained varies from table to table it will never be a universal type build.

So far, rogues lag a bit in damage in 5.24e. It's why I won't dismiss this concept based on balance reasons. Balance-wise, I am not too worried about it.

 

[StitchedSpartan]

Yeah damage is still far behind nearly every optimal class build in 2024 even with this trick

 

[ECMO3]

This does not actually require multiclassing. At low level all it requires is the Truestrike Cantrip which is available to Elves through species and to everyone through Magic Initiate (and maybe available other ways).

At high level it does not even require that.

 

[MarkB]

This does not actually require multiclassing. At low level all it requires is the Truestrike Cantrip which is available to Elves through species and to everyone through Magic Initiate (and maybe available other ways).

At high level it does not even require that.

Weirdly, no. Anyone who knows the cantrip can scribe it to a scroll, but by one of those awkward little loopholes, you can only cast it from a scroll if it's on your class's spell list. And elves and magic initiates don't have class spell lists innately.

 

[ECMO3]

Weirdly, no. Anyone who knows the cantrip can scribe it to a scroll, but by one of those awkward little loopholes, you can only cast it from a scroll if it's on your class's spell list. And elves and magic initiates don't have class spell lists innately.

Good point. I would agree on Elves. I would argue though that people with the MI do have a class spell list, because the feat specifies that you choose from the "Wizard, Cleric or Druid spell list".

So they do have a class spell list, it is just not the spell list from their chosen class.

 

[MarkB]

Good point. I would agree on Elves. I would argue though that people with the MI do have a class spell list, because the feat specifies that you choose from the "Wizard, Cleric or Druid spell list".

So they do have a class spell list, it is just not the spell list from their chosen class.

Which, unfortunately, is at least as debatable as whether scrolls qualify for Fast Hands.