D&D (2024) Thief Rogue / True Strike

[billd91]

Reread scroll. How is this different? It is not. A spellbook focus is read. Scroll is read. You are telling me that both these items have you use your action to cast a spell and it affects the casting.

A Spell Scroll (Cantrip) or Spell Scroll (Level 1) is a magic item that bears the words of a cantrip or level 1spell, respectively, determined by the scroll's creator. If the spell is on your class's spell list, you can read the scroll and cast the spell using its normal casting time and without providing any Material components.

Yes, but let's also keep in mind that the 2014 DMG had additional information about using a scroll that indicated it required an action to read and use (2014DMG p139). Exactly how that gets translated in to 2024 terms, we have yet to see. If the DMG elaborates on how scrolls work by saying they require a Magic action to use, then they would be subject to Fast Hands. If they don't require the Magic action, then they'd be ineligible for Fast Hands.

 

[Mistwell]

Reread scroll. How is this different? It is not. A spellbook focus is read. Scroll is read. You are telling me that both these items have you use your action to cast a spell and it affects the casting.

A Spell Scroll (Cantrip) or Spell Scroll (Level 1) is a magic item that bears the words of a cantrip or level 1spell, respectively, determined by the scroll's creator. If the spell is on your class's spell list, you can read the scroll and cast the spell using its normal casting time and without providing any Material components.

You're not just casting the spell though. It says right there "without providing any Material components." Even a costly one.
Grimoire however requires you to cast your own spell, and provide your own expensive material components. It will just alter one of your own spells you cast while holding it. One from your own prepared slot. You can use a Grimoire with fast hands, if anything it does requires a magic action. But you're casting your own spell, not a spell it's providing for you. You can use it as a spell book, but it has no spell slot. A scroll however is providing a built-in spell slot that isn't your own spell slot. You activate a scroll with a magic action to cast the scrolls spell. You do not activate a Grimoire with a magic action to cast the Grimoire's spell as the Grimoire does not, in itself, provide any spells to cast.

 

[James Gasik]

I was about to bring up the Ring of Spell Storing, but looking at it, for the life of me, I can't determine if you can put cantrips into it.

Cantrips are spells, but they don't have levels, so I have no idea how that works.

 

[ECMO3]

If the DMG elaborates on how scrolls work by saying they require a Magic action to use, then they would be subject to Fast Hands. If they don't require the Magic action, then they'd be ineligible for Fast Hands.

There are only 12 different actions available. The only one other than the Magic Action that makes any logical sense is the Utilize Action and that would be eligible for Fast Hands as well.

If they make reading a scroll an Attack Action or a Dodge Action or a Study Action, etc then it would not be eligible for Fast Hands, but that makes no sense at all .....

.... on the other hand if reading a Scroll is a Dash, Disengage or Hide Action they could of course use Cunning Action to read it as a bonus action instead.

 

[ECMO3]

The scroll does not mention the magic action. It mentions casting a spell, which then takes a magic action or maybe a bonus action or even a reaction.

Yes and as I have said several times Fast Hands is only usable on a spell scroll if the spell in question has an action casting time, because those others do not use a Magic Action.

 

[ECMO3]

No specific description of a Spell Scroll says that it takes a Magic action to cast as far as I can see.

The description in the PHB says specifically that is takes the normal casting time, which for spells that have an action casting time is a magic action.

True Strike is one of these spells.

Fast Hands does not work on a spell scroll with Misty Step or Shield for example as they would not use a magic action.

 

[I'm A Banana]

The description in the PHB says specifically that is takes the normal casting time, which for spells that have an action casting time is a magic action.

True Strike is one of these spells.

Fast Hands does not work on a spell scroll with Misty Step or Shield for example as they would not use a magic action.

That reading makes some sense - it's the de facto Magic action I talked about above. It's possible to read "requires the Magic action" as including all single-action or longer spellcasting, since all single-action or longer spellcasting does use the Magic action. It's also possible to read "requires the Magic action" as only including magic items that specify ("require") the Magic action. The Magic action can be used for both things.

So given that the words themselves are ambiguous, which reading do we think was intended?

Given that the outcome of the first reading (a thief/wizard with a better sneak attack than any other thief and a better version of Quicken Spell) was almost certainly not intended, I'm going with the second reading.

 

[James Gasik]

But is the True Strike trick really worth it? I mean, you need scrolls of True Strike, and while they are cheap, it does take not only money, but time to craft them. This doesn't sound like it would ever be something that you can do every round of combat. So letting a Thief who took a multiclass to actually be able to cast a scroll and was able to acquire/make scrolls to occasionally set up for a bonus action sneak attack to allow a reaction sneak attack doesn't seem all that egregious- at this point it's not even an exploit, given all the setup required.

There has to be an easier way to do this sort of thing.

 

[ECMO3]

Given that the outcome of the first reading (a thief/wizard with a better sneak attack than any other thief and a better version of Quicken Spell) was almost certainly not intended, I'm going with the second reading.

I think this is exactly what was intended. Allow the thief to use a bonus action to use magic items that others need to use an action for, and using a scroll to cast a cantrip is one of the WEAKEST examples of things that could be done.

There is no other thing this could possibly be intended to do.

 

[Kobold Stew]

I think this is exactly what was intended. Allow the thief to use a bonus action to use magic items that others need to use an action for, and using a scroll to cast a cantrip is one of the WEAKEST examples of things that could be done.

There is no other thing this could possibly be intended to do.

Related, if tangential, is the fact that the Arcane Trickster's Mage Hand is meaningfully better than any one else's. There are reasons to give the Rogue a perk not generally available to dedicated spellcasters.