D&D (2024) Thief Rogue / True Strike

[UngeheuerLich]

Because it wasn't relevant to explaining the ambiguity associated with the wording.

The five words you are talking about though are explicitly why a spell scroll with a spell that takes an action to cast can be used with fast hands.

I've said it many times but I will say it again:

A spell scroll is a magic item

A spell scroll with a spell on it that takes an action to cast requires the magic action to cast.

Therefore said spell scroll can be used with Fast Hands as a Bonus Action.

I will underline it here for you so you:

"If the spell is on your class’s spell list, you can read the scroll and cast the spell using its normal casting time and without providing any Material components."

Normal casting time is an action, so it uses a magic action and works with Fast Hands.

Case Closed (again).

Not really.

As others said: "you cast a spell using the scroll".

The question is if the relation is transitive or not regarding the fast hand ability. You take that as a given, while it is not necessarily:

The scroll does not mention the magic action. It mentions casting a spell, which then takes a magic action or maybe a bonus action or even a reaction.

 

[I'm A Banana]

It's not a requirement of that category of magic items as a generalization. Much like you can have a wand which casts spells as a bonus action, or a magic action, or even a 1 minute casting time in theory (though I don't recall such a wand).

However, it's a requirement of that specific magic item, if that specific item requires the magic action to trigger it.

Examples:

Wand of Radiance: "A creature that is attuned to Radiance can use a bonus action...to cast the enhance ability spell, choosing itself..." As this specific wand does not require a magic action to activate it, it cannot work with fast hands.

Wand of Magic Missile: "you can use an action [now called a Magic action] to expend 1 or more of its charges to cast the magic missile spell from it. For 1 charge, you cast the 1st-level version of the spell. You can increase the spell slot level by one for each additional charge you expend." As this specific wand does require the magic action to activate it, it can work with fast hands to reduce the casting time to a bonus action.

No specific description of a Spell Scroll says that it takes a Magic action to cast as far as I can see.

So while the category of magic items "Scrolls" does not require that you take the Magic action, a specific scroll does require you to take the Magic action. The distinction of "to cast" does not seem relevant as all magic items which we all agree are supposed to be covered by Fast Hands, like a Wand of Magic Missile, also uses the term "to cast [the] spell." Most magic items which could be used with Fast Hands cast a spell, and the magic item user is designated as the caster most of the time.

We don't all agree. I don't know what the wand of magic missiles will be like. I don't have the '24 DMG yet. I could see it being a situation where the designers allow it to be covered with Fast Hands ("take the Magic action" being part of its activation description), but I could also see it NOT being allowed there (wands are a lot like scrolls and staves in that they typically require the spell to be on your class's spell list, and so may be designed much like scrolls in that it enhances your casting of the spell, rather than taking the Magic action to generate the effect). Because the wand currently has no attunement restrictions, I'd wager it'll be the former, honestly. Neither outcome suggests that spell scrolls follow the same logic, though.

A spell scroll of magic missile, like a wand of magic missile, both require the Magic action by that specific item. Both "cast the spell." It's not tied to a category of magic items, which is just a title used to organize magic items. It's tied the requirements of that specific item.

A spell scroll is a specific item and it doesn't require the Magic action. It requires casting a spell. A wand of magic missiles or any other item that duplicates the effects of a spell may or may not require casting the spell, as is appropriate for that item. Like, I could see a world where the wand of entangle, the staff of fire and the staff of charming require casting the spell, but the cloak of invisibility, the wand of wonder and the necklace of fireballs require taking the Magic action. In that case, you could use Fast Hands with the latter trio, but not with the former trio.

And I imagine that this (unnecessarily subtle, IMO) distinction will largely hinge on if the item is intended to be used by spellcasters to more easily cast spells (in which case I'd wager you'll mostly need to follow the rules for spellcasting, like with spell scrolls and most staves and a lot of wands), or it's an item mostly intended for a general audience to reproduce the effects of spells (in which case I'd imagine you'll find a lot of Magic Action activations, like the wand of wonder or the wand of magic missiles).

I don't imagine the design intention was to give a specific multiclass combo exclusive access to a better version of Quicken Spell and a better version of Sneak Attack all in one combo, so RAI seems pretty clear to me. RAW, I can see the argument that casting a spell requires the Magic action, so de facto any item that requires casting the spell also requires using the Magic action, but there's that leap in that spell scrolls don't themselves require the Magic action.

I do suspect this will clarify a bit when we have more items to work with and we can see if the designers did, indeed, care about the distinction between using the Magic action to cast a spell (which may be with magic item assistance) and using the Magic action to activate a magic item in some way (which may include causing it to cast a spell).

 

[Mistwell]

A spell scroll is a specific item and it doesn't require the Magic action.

It is not. See for example Scroll of Protection. Spell Scroll is a general category, not a specific item. Each spell scroll is subject to the requirements for that specific magic item. See for example this description from the 2014 DMG, "Unless a scroll’s description says otherwise, any creature that can understand a written language can read the script on a scroll and attempt to activate it."

It requires casting a spell.

Not always. See, again, scroll of protection.

A wand of magic missiles or any other item that duplicates the effects of a spell may or may not require casting the spell, as is appropriate for that item.

Just like scrolls.

Like, I could see a world where the wand of entangle, the staff of fire and the staff of charming require casting the spell, but the cloak of invisibility, the wand of wonder and the necklace of fireballs require taking the Magic action. In that case, you could use Fast Hands with the latter trio, but not with the former trio.

I think if a specific magic item requires a Magic action to activate it, regardless of casting a spell or not, then it can be used with Fast Hands as Fast Hands only cares about the type of action used to activate a magic item.

 

[I'm A Banana]

It is not. See for example Scroll of Protection. Spell Scroll is a general category, not a specific item. Each spell scroll is subject to the requirements for that specific magic item.

Pretty sure this is incorrect on the RAW.

A scroll of protection is not a spell scroll. Those are two distinct magic items (that both happen to take the appearance of scrolls). Scrolls of Protection are not in the '24 PHB.

Evidence for this includes that they have different entries in the '14 DMG, and that they are activated differently (in '14, a scroll of protection doesn't require casting a spell, but a spell scroll does).

I could absolutely see a world where the scroll of protection is activated with a Magic action, and a spell scroll is not. Scrolls of Protection are something in '14 that any character could use, and it wouldn't shock me if they were kosher for Fast Hands.

I think if a specific magic item requires a Magic action to activate it, regardless of casting a spell or not, then it can be used with Fast Hands as Fast Hands only cares about the type of action used to activate a magic item.

I think there is a distinction to be made in items that require you to cast a spell (and so are benefitting the casting), and in items that cast the spell themselves.

A wand of magic missile or a scroll of protection can be used by anyone. The party barbarian can pick it up and use it. It doesn't require you to cast a spell to make use of it.

A spell scroll is different in that it requires you to cast the spell to gain its benefits.

 

[Eric Olson1]

I'm pretty sure banana is right: each magic item will have a way to specify it if works with fast hands or not.
And as UngeheuerLIch points out: fast hands has been problematic in previous version... so you know they are going to be careful. I suspect they thought they went too far with 2014 and wanted to add some "fun" back without unbalancing. So they came up with a way to select which items work and which items do not.

Take a look at D&D beyond's free 2024 adventure: Uni & unicorn. You can see most items begin with:
"As a magic action ....". But at least one does not: Niko's Mace. "While holding the Mace, you can expend 1 of its charges to cast Summon Celestial ". It avoids the syntax that Fast Hands is looking for. I strongly suspect the DMG will be follow this pattern. The unbalancing items will enable you to cast a spell instead of "as a magic action ..."

​

Scrolls state you cast a spell. To note: scrolls are special .. from multiple places in the 2024 PHB this sentiment is repeated: scrolls simply replace the need to prepare a spell before casting and they replace the need for material components when casting a spell. The rules also say that some magic items also replace the need to prepare a spell when casting it. (like NIko's Mace).
Scroll are not activated or used, the energy must pass through a spell caster as the spell is "cast" (or someone with that ability) Reading some scrolls require the caster's concentration. This is beyond having fast hands push a button on a wand.

 

[MarkB]

I'm pretty sure banana is right: each magic item will have a way to specify it if works with fast hands or not.
And as UngeheuerLIch points out: fast hands has been problematic in previous version... so you know they are going to be careful. I suspect they thought they went too far with 2014 and wanted to add some "fun" back without unbalancing. So they came up with a way to select which items work and which items do not.

Take a look at D&D beyond's free 2024 adventure: Uni & unicorn. You can see most items begin with:
"As a magic action ....". But at least one does not: Niko's Mace. "While holding the Mace, you can expend 1 of its charges to cast Summon Celestial ". It avoids the syntax that Fast Hands is looking for. I strongly suspect the DMG will be follow this pattern. The unbalancing items will enable you to cast a spell instead of "as a magic action ..."

​

Scrolls state you cast a spell. To note: scrolls are special .. from multiple places in the 2024 PHB this sentiment is repeated: scrolls simply replace the need to prepare a spell before casting and they replace the need for material components when casting a spell. The rules also say that some magic items also replace the need to prepare a spell when casting it. (like NIko's Mace).
Scroll are not activated or used, the energy must pass through a spell caster as the spell is "cast" (or someone with that ability) Reading some scrolls require the caster's concentration. This is beyond having fast hands push a button on a wand.

Fast Hands isn't looking for any specific wording in an item's description. All it cares about is first, is it a magic item, and second, do you use a magic action to activate it?

 

[I'm A Banana]

Fast Hands isn't looking for any specific wording in an item's description. All it cares about is first, is it a magic item, and second, do you use a magic action to activate it?

I think that second point is where the specific wording comes in.

If the item says it takes the Magic action, then it does, and Fast Hands can apply.

If the item instead says you cast a spell, then the item does not take the Magic action, and Fast Hands does not apply.

According to my favored reading, anyway.

 

[Eric Olson1]

I think that second point is where the specific wording comes in.

If the item says it takes the Magic action, then it does, and Fast Hands can apply.

If the item instead says you cast a spell, then the item does not take the Magic action, and Fast Hands does not apply.

According to my favored reading, anyway.

If you are going to read scroll as qualifying for Fast Hand .. why bother with scrolls? Just use something similar to Arcane Grimoires from Tasha (uncommon item). Don't need to bother creating/buying scroll. Just get 2 spells a round. (no, not broken, really....)

An Arcane Grimoires +1 is a magic item that is a leather-bound book. While holding it, you can use it as a spellcasting focus: you can read the book and cast a prepared spell using its normal casting time and without providing any zero-cost Material components. When used to cast wizard spells, you gain a +1 bonus your spell attack and saving throw DCs. You can use the book as a spellbook. In addition, when you use your Arcane Recovery feature, you can increase the number of spell slots you regain by 1.

 

[billd91]

If you are going to read scroll as qualifying for Fast Hand .. why bother with scrolls? Just use something similar to Arcane Grimoires from Tasha (uncommon item). Don't need to bother creating/buying scroll. Just get 2 spells a round. (no, not broken, really....)

An Arcane Grimoires +1 is a magic item that is a leather-bound book. While holding it, you can use it as a spellcasting focus: you can read the book and cast a prepared spell using its normal casting time and without providing any zero-cost Material components. When used to cast wizard spells, use gain a +1 bonus your spell attack and saving throw DCs. You can use the book as a spellbook. In addition, when you use your Arcane Recovery feature, you can increase the number of spell slots you regain by 1.

An arcane grimoire isn't an item that's activated by an action. It's held while using your action to cast a spell and affects the casting. But it's not a separately activated item. That's why it isn't relevant to the Fast Hands discussion.

 

[Eric Olson1]

An arcane grimoire isn't an item that's activated by an action. It's held while using your action to cast a spell and affects the casting. But it's not a separately activated item. That's why it isn't relevant to the Fast Hands discussion.

Reread scroll. How is this different? It is not. A spellbook focus is read. Scroll is read. You are telling me that both these items have you use your action to cast a spell and it affects the casting.

A Spell Scroll (Cantrip) or Spell Scroll (Level 1) is a magic item that bears the words of a cantrip or level 1spell, respectively, determined by the scroll's creator. If the spell is on your class's spell list, you can read the scroll and cast the spell using its normal casting time and without providing any Material components.