D&D (2024) Thief Rogue / True Strike

[Kobold Stew]

As written, some 2024 items upfront state that a magic action is required for activation, some 2024 do not state that a magic action is required for activation. It will be a DM's choice if those that don't specify a required magic action would still qualify for Fast Hands. A very strict reading would require the item to state that prerequisite.

With this, you have convinced me that your interpretation is mistaken.

Activating a scroll takes an action. Actions are listed in ch 1 and in the glossary: which action is it? The only plausible candidate is that it is a Magic action. That should settle the matter.

You may be right that it is helpful to think there are two types of magic items: those that cast a spell (like a scroll, and casting a spell takes a Magic action); and those like a wand with charges that may not be casting a spell (which would also take a Magic action. Again, There's no other choice.

From this I think it follows that as long as the spell on a scroll takes an action to cast, then it can be case as a bonus action using fast hands.

 

[Mistwell]

If we are to use your interpretation then reading the scroll and using the magic action to cast it are two explicit distinct events. Reading the scroll does not have an action cost or time associated with it, and more importantly, there is no text in terms of a time requirement connecting the reading to the casting. Also the scroll itself is not destroyed on reading but only on the spell being cast - "The scroll disintegrates when the casting is completed".

That's pretty persuasive to me.

 

[ECMO3]

Magical action [cast spell] - the scroll makes this possible and is destroyed in the process.

Ok it is a magic item, it requires a Magic Action to use so it works with fast hands.

Case closed.

As indented? The best we have so far is a quote from Crawford's youtube video: "The thief will be able to take a magic item that requires a magic action for activation and thanks to fast hands, activate it as a bonus action." To me, the reason he carefully spoke the words "for activation" was to distinguish it from other types of magic actions. If he left out those two words, I would be on your side here.

Crawford is never careful with his words except in Sage advice. That is one of the biggest complaints. Also "reading" a scroll qualifies as activation as far as I can tell.

 

[Eric Olson1]

Ok it is a magic item, it requires a Magic Action to use so it works with fast hands.

Case closed.




Crawford is never careful with his words except in Sage advice. That is one of the biggest complaints. Also "reading" a scroll qualifies as activation as far as I can tell.

2014 scroll: " If the spell is on your class’s spell list, you can read the scroll and cast its spell without providing any material components. Otherwise, the scroll is unintelligible. Casting the spell by reading the scroll requires the spell’s normal casting time."

2024 scroll: "If the spell is on your class’s spell list, you can read the scroll and cast the spell using its normal casting time and without providing any Material components."

Why did they deliberately remove the word "requires"? If they kept the old wording, then the interaction with Fast Hands would be clear. They changed it.
Why do 2024 some magic items specifically add "As a magic action you may ..." ?
While other 2024 magic items (like scroll) avoid that syntax: "you can expend one charge to cast ..."

They were editing and refining the rules, they were not careless. They specifically changed the wording so it would not apply. Pending any official ruling, there is an easy case for a DM to not allow this, both RAW and by intent.

 

[Eric Olson1]

2014 scroll: " If the spell is on your class’s spell list, you can read the scroll and cast its spell without providing any material components. Otherwise, the scroll is unintelligible. Casting the spell by reading the scroll requires the spell’s normal casting time."

2024 scroll: "If the spell is on your class’s spell list, you can read the scroll and cast the spell using its normal casting time and without providing any Material components."

Why did they deliberately remove the word "requires"? If they kept the old wording, then the interaction with Fast Hands would be clear. They changed it.
Why do 2024 some magic items specifically add "As a magic action you may ..." ?
While other 2024 magic items (like scroll) avoid that syntax: "you can expend one charge to cast ..."

They were editing and refining the rules, they were not careless. They specifically changed the wording so it would not apply. Pending any official ruling, there is an easy case for a DM to not allow this, both RAW and by intent.

Say you have an magic item with 10 charges. When you expend a charge, any spell you cast will give you +2 to your spell DC.
You are saying that because it it an item and you use it during your magic action ... that a Fast Hands Rogue should be able to use it to cast a 1 action spell as a bonus action?

 

[billd91]

Say you have an magic item with 10 charges. When you expend a charge, any spell you cast will give you +2 to your spell DC.
You are saying that because it it an item and you use it during your magic action ... that a Fast Hands Rogue should be able to use it to cast a 1 action spell as a bonus action?

Is the casting of a spell part of the expending a charge of that magic item? Your description isn't clear. If it is, then yes, Fast Hands Thief should be able to cast that spell as a bonus action. It's like the casting of a fireball from a wand of fireballs - unless they rewrote them substantially from the 2014 version in which you took an action to cast a spell from the wand. If it requires a Magic action to cast that fireball, then the Fast Hands Thief can do it.

 

[Eric Olson1]

Is the casting of a spell part of the expending a charge of that magic item? Your description isn't clear. If it is, then yes, Fast Hands Thief should be able to cast that spell as a bonus action. It's like the casting of a fireball from a wand of fireballs - unless they rewrote them substantially from the 2014 version in which you took an action to cast a spell from the wand. If it requires a Magic action to cast that fireball, then the Fast Hands Thief can do it.

How about this one?
"glowing focus" This magic item gives a faint green flow, visible up to 1 foot away. When this magical item is used as part of a casting a spell, it can be used in place of the spell's material components (if they are not normally consumed by the spell and don't have a cost specified).
So if used as part of casting a spell during your magical action, then you can use Fast Hands to "use" this during your bonus action and cast any 1 action spell. If your component pouch is missing .. you could even say this is "required" to be used to cast your spell.
Artificers make arcane focus items these easily. Ruby of the war mage? Every spell caster will get 3 levels of rogue and cast two action spells per round.

 

[billd91]

How about this one?
"glowing focus" This magic item gives a faint green flow, visible up to 1 foot away. When this magical item is used as part of a casting a spell, it can be used in place of the spell's material components (if they are not normally consumed by the spell and don't have a cost specified).

Is it used as part of the casting of a spell, or activated to cast a spell? There's a difference between having it in your hand and it being involved in the casting of a spell like a wand of the war mage and being an item that, when activated, casts a spell like a wand of fireballs.

 

[Mistwell]

Just chiming in here that I still really enjoy this debate. Both sides have very good arguments supporting their position. This feels kind of like an old school 3e discussion, which I am sure is a bad thing for many but for me I enjoy seeing smart people analyze something like this and come up with compelling and persuasive reasons to support their position.

 

[I'm A Banana]

3. Fast hands allows you to: take the Magic action to use a magic item that requires that action.

A scroll with a spell on it with a casting time of 1 action meets this requirement.

Central to this interpretation is that reading the scroll is executed as part of the casting time (in this case magic action).

The counter-reading is:

Scrolls don't require you to take the Magic action. They require you to cast a spell.

Using the Magic action isn't a requirement of the item. It's a requirement of the spell you're casting (evidence for this is that bonus action spells and reaction spells don't take the Magic action, because they take your Bonus Action or Reaction, which isn't the Magic action).

Fast Hands only applies when the Magic action is a requirement of the item. Items might activate in different ways. Some will require the Magic action, some will require you to cast a spell or make an attack or use the Dash action or whatever. The magic item defines how it is activated. And scrolls are activated by casting a spell.

If we are to use your interpretation then reading the scroll and using the magic action to cast it are two explicit distinct events. Reading the scroll does not have an action cost or time associated with it, and more importantly, there is no text in terms of a time requirement connecting the reading to the casting. Also the scroll itself is not destroyed on reading but only on the spell being cast - "The scroll disintegrates when the casting is completed".

This interpretation would make scrolls much more powerful and have two big effects on gameplay - first an unlimited number of people could read the scroll and get a free casting, and second the casting could happen days weeks or even years after it was read. I could read the scroll and then cast it an any time in the future using a magic action. Since it does not disintegrate on reading, I then could have every caster in the party or even the entire town read the scroll and then all of them would have one free casting of the spell at any time in the future. I could keep having more and more people read the scroll and get a free casting until the first one of them cast the spell and the scroll disintegrated. After it disintegrated the other people who had read it until that point would still have their free casting available. I don't think this is what is intended and therefore I think the intended meaning of the wording in the PHB is that the reading and the casting happen together as part of the same casting time.

1) You can only read a scroll that's on your class's spell list.

2) Reading the scroll is not sufficient to use it. To use a scroll, you read the scroll and cast the spell using its normal casting time.