D&D (2024) Thief Rogue / True Strike

[I'm A Banana]

Implying that spell scrolls are magic items

I understand that there is no "Magic" action listed under Spell Scrolls in the PHB but they are magic items that cast a spell, casting a spell is considered to be the Magic action

Yeah, spell scrolls I'd think are magic items.

But the Magic action is used for two distinct purposes. One is to cast a spell. One is to activate a magic item. Fast Hands lets you do the latter as a bonus action. Using a scroll is the former, which Fast Hands doesn't let you do as a bonus action (though Quicken Spell does, in certain circumstances, for a cost).

Pretty clear RAI there, given "free Bonus Action casting of every spell in the game" almost certainly wasn't the intent behind a level 3 rogue ability. I can see some tables ruling differently based on the fact that casting a spell is ALSO a Magic action, but that's not clear RAW, and I wouldn't allow that at my tables, because not every magic item is used with the Magic action.

Like, I also wouldn't let this mean that rogues could attack with a magic greatsword as a bonus action, even though you definitely activate a magic greatsword by trying to hit someone with it!

 

[StitchedSpartan]

Yeah, spell scrolls I'd think are magic items.

But the Magic action is used for two distinct purposes. One is to cast a spell. One is to activate a magic item. Fast Hands lets you do the latter as a bonus action. Using a scroll is the former, which Fast Hands doesn't let you do as a bonus action (though Quicken Spell does, in certain circumstances, for a cost).

Pretty clear RAI there, given "free Bonus Action casting of every spell in the game" almost certainly wasn't the intent behind a level 3 rogue ability. I can see some tables ruling differently based on the fact that casting a spell is ALSO a Magic action, but that's not clear RAW, and I wouldn't allow that at my tables, because not every magic item is used with the Magic action.

Like, I also wouldn't let this mean that rogues could attack with a magic greatsword as a bonus action, even though you definitely activate a magic greatsword by trying to hit someone with it!

Unless the DM gives them extremely high level spell scrolls, Thief Rogues have no realistic way to cast spells beyond level 1 (from adventurer's gear) or the spell levels of their party members. You can only scribe spells of the level of spell slots you have access to, so a 1 level dip into Wizard only allows for Thieves to scribe level 1 spells they have learned and prepared. Party members with higher spell slots can create the scrolls for them, but at that point you are already playing at that power level.

• Cantrip 15gp
• 1st 25gp
• 2nd 100gp
• 3rd 150gp
• 4th 1000gp
• 5th 1500gp
• 6th 10,000gp
• 7th 12,500gp
• 8th 15,000gp
• 9th 50,000gp

Spell scrolls become exponentially more expensive to scribe (not to mention buying which is much worse) as well, so it is not realistically spammable with higher level spells

 

[StitchedSpartan]

Like, I also wouldn't let this mean that rogues could attack with a magic greatsword as a bonus action, even though you definitely activate a magic greatsword by trying to hit someone with it!

Again the difference here is that when you use a Spell Scroll it is the same as using the Magic action, the sword example doesn't make sense unless it had the ability to caste a spell or had an ability with the Magic action built in

 

[ECMO3]

True.

And if your using Charisma to attack, then your Dex, AC, stealth, and initiative is lower.

Yeah it usually is lower. You are specifically trading other skills (and presumably spells) for these things.

High Charisma Rogues who prioritized Charisma over Dex happened in 2014 5E. Not a lot, but enough, kind of like Strength Rogues. Usually they were Arcane Tricksters with feat and race spells filling a kind of Gish role. Having Truestrike available for attacks and damage will make this a more attractive choice.

 

[Mistwell]

It's an interesting debate. I personally side with this being doable with the Thief 3/ Wiz 1 build. But I see Banana's point and I think that's also a reasonable ruling. I hope there is clarification, either in the DMG or by one of the designers.

 

[Oofta]

The Quickened Spell states "When you cast a spell that has a casting time of an action..." (bold added). Several spells have a casting time of more than an action yet there is no restriction for fast hands.

Fast hands states "...take the Magic action to use a magic item that requires that action" (bold added). The time it takes to cast a spell from a scroll is dependent on the spell casting time, the scroll itself doesn't require an action in and of itself. The scroll is just a repository for the spell being cast.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

 

[fluffybunbunkittens]

That does raise the good point, that the best argument against Fast Hands letting you scroll use as a bonus action would be scrolls of spells that take longer than an action to cast (but are of a reasonably low level that you'd expect to see them before the teen levels where everything breaks anyway). Let's see about 1min+ casting time spells...

1+ hour spells are lv5+ to have an impact, kind of disappointed by that.
1min has lv3 Glyph of Warding, Animate Dead, Leomund's Tiny Hut (which can already act as a battle bunker)...
Ah, Snare! Finally a use for it!

 

[MarkB]

That does raise the good point, that the best argument against Fast Hands letting you scroll use as a bonus action would be scrolls of spells that take longer than an action to cast

Not really. A spell scroll for a spell that has a casting time of one action is a magic item which requires a Magic action to activate. A spell scroll for a spell with a different casting time is not. The former still qualifies for Fast Hands.

 

[fluffybunbunkittens]

A spell scroll for a spell that has a casting time of one action is a magic item which requires a Magic action to activate.

Sure, I'll take it. Anything to get our scroll-brogues going up in tiers.

 

[fluffybunbunkittens]

Cantrip/lv1 scrolls also cast at an attack bonus of +5. That never increases. It's a lv1-4 +3 stat attack.

So it's just an option for a Rogue build, but it is unlikely to be the long-term core of it... though you could chance it if you have advantage already (which sounds great! that means the Rogue has a choice to make, imagine that).

(semi-relatedly, I just saw Treantmonk posted their True Strike Rogue video, and I bet people are going to get weird about it being the one true build, though it needs the Assassin9 feature to work in any actual play...)