D&D (2024) Thief Rogue / True Strike

[StitchedSpartan]

Cantrip/lv1 scrolls also cast at an attack bonus of +5. That never increases. It's a lv1-4 +3 stat attack.

So it's just an option for a Rogue build, but it is unlikely to be the long-term core of it... though you could chance it if you have advantage already (which sounds great! that means the Rogue has a choice to make, imagine that).

(semi-relatedly, I just saw Treantmonk posted their True Strike Rogue video, and I bet people are going to get weird about it being the one true build, though it needs the Assassin9 feature to work in any actual play...)

Scribed Spell Scrolls use the Spell Save DC and Spell Attack Bonus of their crafter, so in the example of this thread it would increase as you leveled up

 

[fluffybunbunkittens]

Scribed Spell Scrolls use the Spell Save DC and Spell Attack Bonus of their crafter, so in the example of this thread it would increase as you leveled up

Even more reason to dip into Wiz yourself rather than rely on store-bought/found goods!

 

[James Gasik]

Pack Tactics also just published a video talking about Fast Hands + Scrolls. I hope we get some clarification soon on the intent before people start taking it as gospel and the majority of internet searches will say "of course you can do this, don't be ridiculous".

There's already enough of that out there for 2014 5e, which make it really hard when rules debates come up and I need to do research to try and figure out what the actual intent is.

 

[Eric Olson1]

This seems pretty clear to me - scrolls will not work.

• A spell scroll is not "used". It is read and then you "can cast the spell using its normal casting time". "Read scroll" does not state that the "magic [action]" is required. It does not fit the "use a ... magic item that requires a Magic action to be activated" classification. Reading a scroll fits the "cast a spell" classification of magic [action].
• The thief Fast Hands text carefully (and exactly) matches the "use a magic item that requires [a Magic action].

If scrolls were meant to be used using the magic action, the rules would say so. Instead, the scroll description specifically states the other magic action option: "cast a spell"

If you had a "light crossbow of true strike" [activated as a magic action] ...
that would work twice: as an action plus a "fast hands bonus action" (unless it stated that it did not).

 

[ECMO3]

This seems pretty clear to me - scrolls will not work.

• A spell scroll is not "used". It is read and then you "can cast the spell using its normal casting time". "Read scroll" does not state that the "magic [action]" is required. It does not fit the "use a ... magic item that requires a Magic action to be activated" classification. Reading a scroll fits the "cast a spell" classification of magic [action].
• The thief Fast Hands text carefully (and exactly) matches the "use a magic item that requires [a Magic action].

If scrolls were meant to be used using the magic action, the rules would say so. Instead, the scroll description specifically states the other magic action option: "cast a spell"

If you had a "light crossbow of true strike" [activated as a magic action] ...
that would work twice: as an action plus a "fast hands bonus action" (unless it stated that it did not).

It seems pretty clear to me RAI and RAW they will work. Here are the facts that matter IMO:

1. Casting a spell that takes an action to cast uses the magic action. Likewise reading from a scroll with a spell that requires an action to cast and casting that spell uses the magic action.

2. A scroll is a magic item.

3. Fast hands allows you to: take the Magic action to use a magic item that requires that action.

A scroll with a spell on it with a casting time of 1 action meets this requirement.

Central to this interpretation is that reading the scroll is executed as part of the casting time (in this case magic action).

If we are to use your interpretation then reading the scroll and using the magic action to cast it are two explicit distinct events. Reading the scroll does not have an action cost or time associated with it, and more importantly, there is no text in terms of a time requirement connecting the reading to the casting. Also the scroll itself is not destroyed on reading but only on the spell being cast - "The scroll disintegrates when the casting is completed".

This interpretation would make scrolls much more powerful and have two big effects on gameplay - first an unlimited number of people could read the scroll and get a free casting, and second the casting could happen days weeks or even years after it was read. I could read the scroll and then cast it an any time in the future using a magic action. Since it does not disintegrate on reading, I then could have every caster in the party or even the entire town read the scroll and then all of them would have one free casting of the spell at any time in the future. I could keep having more and more people read the scroll and get a free casting until the first one of them cast the spell and the scroll disintegrated. After it disintegrated the other people who had read it until that point would still have their free casting available. I don't think this is what is intended and therefore I think the intended meaning of the wording in the PHB is that the reading and the casting happen together as part of the same casting time.

 

[Eric Olson1]

It seems pretty clear to me RAI and RAW they will work. Here are the facts that matter IMO:

1. Casting a spell that takes an action to cast uses the magic action. Likewise reading from a scroll with a spell that requires an action to cast and casting that spell uses the magic action.

2. A scroll is a magic item.

3. Fast hands allows you to: take the Magic action to use a magic item that requires that action.

A scroll with a spell on it with a casting time of 1 action meets this requirement.

Central to this interpretation is that reading the scroll is executed as part of the casting time (in this case magic action).

If we are to use your interpretation then reading the scroll and using the magic action to cast it are two explicit distinct events. Reading the scroll does not have an action cost or time associated with it, and more importantly, there is no text in terms of a time requirement connecting the reading to the casting. Also the scroll itself is not destroyed on reading but only on the spell being cast - "The scroll disintegrates when the casting is completed".

This interpretation would make scrolls much more powerful and have two big effects on gameplay - first an unlimited number of people could read the scroll and get a free casting, and second the casting could happen days weeks or even years after it was read. I could read the scroll and then cast it an any time in the future using a magic action. Since it does not disintegrate on reading, I then could have every caster in the party or even the entire town read the scroll and then all of them would have one free casting of the spell at any time in the future. I could keep having more and more people read the scroll and get a free casting until the first one of them cast the spell and the scroll disintegrated. After it disintegrated the other people who had read it until that point would still have their free casting available. I don't think this is what is intended and therefore I think the intended meaning of the wording in the PHB is that the reading and the casting happen together as part of the same casting time.

I think your are reading the requirement backwards (Masked-man fallacy).
We know the magic action now has 3 distinct sub-type types. (much like the attack action)
1) you cast a spell OR
2) you use a feature that requires a magic action to be activated OR
3) you use a magic item that requires a magic action to be activated

Thief Fast Hands lets you do (3) as a bonus action:
"take the Magic action to use a magic item that requires that action" ["that action"="the Magic action"]
This clearly applies to (3), but not (1) or (2).

Nowhere in scroll does it say it requires the magic action. It does says that you both "read the scroll" AND "cast the spell" using the spell's normal casting time. So you cannot separate these events.

Furthermore, multiple people cannot read the scroll (unless this is specified as part of the scroll):
"Spell Scrolls and some other magic items contain spells that can be cast without a spell slot. The description of such an item specifies how many times a spell can be cast from it." Since the text for scroll creation describe the process as a spell casting transfer, there is no reason to assume more than once.

So is reading a scroll considered casting a spell? (or using a magic device?) The description of casting a spell in chapter 7 tells us:
"Before you can cast a spell, you must have the spell prepared in your mind or have access to the spell from a magic item, such as a Spell Scroll."

At least for 2024, a DM reading the rule can easily rule that reading a scroll enables one to cast a spell that is not prepared in your mind.

When you compare the scroll description to the D&D beyond 2024 magic items from Uni-horn, every single magic power item begins with this text "As a Magic action, you can ......"
There is one item that is distinctly different: "This Mace has 6 charges and regains 1d6 expended charges daily at dawn. While holding the Mace, you can expend 1 of its charges to cast Summon Celestial ". It doe NOT say 'as a magic action ...."; it says you can use a charge to cast. The hat is similar but weird
The scroll description is written the same way -- it uses the word "cast" not "as a magic action".

 

[MarkB]

I think your are reading the requirement backwards (Masked-man fallacy).
We know the magic action now has 3 distinct sub-type types. (much like the attack action)
1) you cast a spell OR
2) you use a feature that requires a magic action to be activated OR
3) you use a magic item that requires a magic action to be activated

Thief Fast Hands lets you do (3) as a bonus action:
"take the Magic action to use a magic item that requires that action" ["that action"="the Magic action"]
This clearly applies to (3), but not (1) or (2).

Nowhere in scroll does it say it requires the magic action. It does says that you both "read the scroll" AND "cast the spell" using the spell's normal casting time. So you cannot separate these events.

Furthermore, multiple people cannot read the scroll (unless this is specified as part of the scroll):
"Spell Scrolls and some other magic items contain spells that can be cast without a spell slot. The description of such an item specifies how many times a spell can be cast from it." Since the text for scroll creation describe the process as a spell casting transfer, there is no reason to assume more than once.

So is reading a scroll considered casting a spell? (or using a magic device?) The description of casting a spell in chapter 7 tells us:
"Before you can cast a spell, you must have the spell prepared in your mind or have access to the spell from a magic item, such as a Spell Scroll."

At least for 2024, a DM reading the rule can easily rule that reading a scroll enables one to cast a spell that is not prepared in your mind.

When you compare the scroll description to the D&D beyond 2024 magic items from Uni-horn, every single magic power item begins with this text "As a Magic action, you can ......"
There is one item that is distinctly different: "This Mace has 6 charges and regains 1d6 expended charges daily at dawn. While holding the Mace, you can expend 1 of its charges to cast Summon Celestial ". It doe NOT say 'as a magic action ...."; it says you can use a charge to cast. The hat is similar but weird
The scroll description is written the same way -- it uses the word "cast" not "as a magic action".

Seems like a distinction without a difference. A spell scroll is a magic item. If it's a scroll of a spell that takes one action to cast, it's a magic item that requires one Magic action to use. It really doesn't matter what sub-category of Magic action it takes to use it.

 

[Eric Olson1]

I think your are reading the requirement backwards (Masked-man fallacy).
We know the magic action now has 3 distinct sub-type types. (much like the attack action)
1) you cast a spell OR
2) you use a feature that requires a magic action to be activated OR
3) you use a magic item that requires a magic action to be activated

Thief Fast Hands lets you do (3) as a bonus action:
"take the Magic action to use a magic item that requires that action" ["that action"="the Magic action"]
This clearly applies to (3), but not (1) or (2).

Nowhere in scroll does it say it requires the magic action. It does says that you both "read the scroll" AND "cast the spell" using the spell's normal casting time. So you cannot separate these events.

Furthermore, multiple people cannot read the scroll (unless this is specified as part of the scroll):
"Spell Scrolls and some other magic items contain spells that can be cast without a spell slot. The description of such an item specifies how many times a spell can be cast from it." Since the text for scroll creation describe the process as a spell casting transfer, there is no reason to assume more than once.

So is reading a scroll considered casting a spell? (or using a magic device?) The description of casting a spell in chapter 7 tells us:
"Before you can cast a spell, you must have the spell prepared in your mind or have access to the spell from a magic item, such as a Spell Scroll."

At least for 2024, a DM reading the rule can easily rule that reading a scroll enables one to cast a spell that is not prepared in your mind.

When you compare the scroll description to the D&D beyond 2024 magic items from Uni-horn, every single magic power item begins with this text "As a Magic action, you can ......"
There is one item that is distinctly different: "This Mace has 6 charges and regains 1d6 expended charges daily at dawn. While holding the Mace, you can expend 1 of its charges to cast Summon Celestial ". It doe NOT say 'as a magic action ...."; it says you can use a charge to cast. The hat is similar but weird
The scroll description is written the same way -- it uses the word "cast" not "as a magic action".

Lets hope that 2024 wands resemble the 2014 descriptions:
"While holding it, you can use an action to expend 1 or more of its charges to cast the fireball spell."
It it changes to this, we are OK:
"While holding it, as a magic action, you can expend 1 or more charges to cast the fireball spell"
If it changes to this, Thieves are going to be sad:
"While holding it you can expend 1 or more changes to cast the fireball spell"

 

[ECMO3]

We know the magic action now has 3 distinct sub-type types. (much like the attack action)
1) you cast a spell OR
2) you use a feature that requires a magic action to be activated OR
3) you use a magic item that requires a magic action to be activated

Thief Fast Hands lets you do (3) as a bonus action:
"take the Magic action to use a magic item that requires that action" ["that action"="the Magic action"]
This clearly applies to (3), but not (1) or (2).

I agree and scrolls inscribed with a spell of one action casting time are #3 above.

As you say above Fast Hands "clearly applies to (3)"

Nowhere in scroll does it say it requires the magic action. It does says that you both "read the scroll" AND "cast the spell" using the spell's normal casting time. So you cannot separate these events.

I agree you can't separate these and this is what I based my conclusion on, you don't separate the reading and the casting.

You can not separate these events then the reading is part of the action taken for the casting casting and if the reading is part of the action taken for the casting then very clearly these scrolls fall under #3 above (you use a magic item that requires a magic action to be activated)

The scroll is a magic item. If reading and casting the particular spell on the scroll requires an action to cast then it is also an item that requires a magic action to be activated.

The magic action does not apply to all scrolls and Fast Hands would not work on a scroll with a spell that has a casting time of a bonus action, reaction or something else because those scrolls are not "a magic item that requires a magic action to be activated" and , but a spell scroll with a spell scribed that takes an action to cast is #3 on your list above.

Finally if we agree that a scroll is a magic item and we agree it takes an action to read it and cast the spell (assumign a spell with a 1 action casting time). Then what kind of action is this? If it is not a magic item activated with the Magic Action then it is still a magic item activated with an action, so which action is being used?

 

[Eric Olson1]

I agree and scrolls inscribed with a spell of one action casting time are #3 above.

As you say above Fast Hands "clearly applies to (3)"



I agree you can't separate these and this is what I based my conclusion on, you don't separate the reading and the casting.

You can not separate these events then the reading is part of the action taken for the casting casting and if the reading is part of the action taken for the casting then very clearly these scrolls fall under #3 above (you use a magic item that requires a magic action to be activated)

The scroll is a magic item. If reading and casting the particular spell on the scroll requires an action to cast then it is also an item that requires a magic action to be activated.

The magic action does not apply to all scrolls and Fast Hands would not work on a scroll with a spell that has a casting time of a bonus action, reaction or something else because those scrolls are not "a magic item that requires a magic action to be activated" and , but a spell scroll with a spell scribed that takes an action to cast is #3 on your list above.

Finally if we agree that a scroll is a magic item and we agree it takes an action to read it and cast the spell (assumign a spell with a 1 action casting time). Then what kind of action is this? If it is not a magic item activated with the Magic Action then it is still a magic item activated with an action, so which action is being used?

The action associated with a reading a "casting time=action" scroll is: Magical action [cast spell] - the scroll makes this possible and is destroyed in the process.

As written, some 2024 items upfront state that a magic action is required for activation, some 2024 do not state that a magic action is required for activation. It will be a DM's choice if those that don't specify a required magic action would still qualify for Fast Hands. A very strict reading would require the item to state that prerequisite.

As indented? The best we have so far is a quote from Crawford's youtube video: "The thief will be able to take a magic item that requires a magic action for activation and thanks to fast hands, activate it as a bonus action." To me, the reason he carefully spoke the words "for activation" was to distinguish it from other types of magic actions. If he left out those two words, I would be on your side here.