D&D (2024) Thief Rogue / True Strike

[Eric Olson1]

Is it used as part of the casting of a spell, or activated to cast a spell? There's a difference between having it in your hand and it being involved in the casting of a spell like a wand of the war mage and being an item that, when activated, casts a spell like a wand of fireballs.

This ^ is exactly the key. A normal spell focus should not work for fast hands because it is part of casting the spell, not an activation. The scroll text HAS been change to this as well. A scroll is now used as part of the casting of a spell, not "activated". A scroll replaces the "preparation in the caster mind" (read chap 7, paragraph 2). just as a spell focus replaces the material components.

 

[Mistwell]

The counter-reading is:

Scrolls don't require you to take the Magic action. They require you to cast a spell.

Using the Magic action isn't a requirement of the item. It's a requirement of the spell you're casting (evidence for this is that bonus action spells and reaction spells don't take the Magic action, because they take your Bonus Action or Reaction, which isn't the Magic action).

It's not a requirement of that category of magic items as a generalization. Much like you can have a wand which casts spells as a bonus action, or a magic action, or even a 1 minute casting time in theory (though I don't recall such a wand).

However, it's a requirement of that specific magic item, if that specific item requires the magic action to trigger it.

Examples:

Wand of Radiance: "A creature that is attuned to Radiance can use a bonus action...to cast the enhance ability spell, choosing itself..." As this specific wand does not require a magic action to activate it, it cannot work with fast hands.

Wand of Magic Missile: "you can use an action [now called a Magic action] to expend 1 or more of its charges to cast the magic missile spell from it. For 1 charge, you cast the 1st-level version of the spell. You can increase the spell slot level by one for each additional charge you expend." As this specific wand does require the magic action to activate it, it can work with fast hands to reduce the casting time to a bonus action.

So while the category of magic items "Scrolls" does not require that you take the Magic action, a specific scroll does require you to take the Magic action. The distinction of "to cast" does not seem relevant as all magic items which we all agree are supposed to be covered by Fast Hands, like a Wand of Magic Missile, also uses the term "to cast [the] spell." Most magic items which could be used with Fast Hands cast a spell, and the magic item user is designated as the caster most of the time.

Fast Hands only applies when the Magic action is a requirement of the item.

A spell scroll of magic missile, like a wand of magic missile, both require the Magic action by that specific item. Both "cast the spell." It's not tied to a category of magic items, which is just a title used to organize magic items. It's tied the requirements of that specific item.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

A spell scroll of magic missile, like a wand of magic missile, both require the Magic action by that specific item. Both "cast the spell." It's not tied to a category of magic items, which is just a title used to organize magic items. It's tied the requirements of that specific item.

Probably the wand of magic missile will also have a different phrase. This might solve the riddle why the rogue got the bonus action magic action back (it was removed with the 2014 DMG), because it was too powerful to activate those spellcasting items into bonus actions (effectively turning any spell into a bonus action spell). Now it is restricted to magic actions to activate magic items. Not cast spells with them.

 

[Mistwell]

Probably the wand of magic missile will also have a different phrase. This might solve the riddle why the rogue got the bonus action magic action back (it was removed with the 2014 DMG), because it was too powerful to activate those spellcasting items into bonus actions (effectively turning any spell into a bonus action spell). Now it is restricted to magic actions to activate magic items. Not cast spells with them.

I doubt a Rogue Thief cannot use a wand as a bonus action with Fast Hands. Pretty sure that's the iconic use of that ability. But you're right, it could well be changed now and my view of the class is skewed. I just don't know and acknowledge my bias.

 

[ECMO3]

This ^ is exactly the key. A normal spell focus should not work for fast hands because it is part of casting the spell, not an activation. The scroll text HAS been change to this as well. A scroll is now used as part of the casting of a spell, not "activated". A scroll replaces the "preparation in the caster mind" (read chap 7, paragraph 2). just as a spell focus replaces the material components.

A scroll is not a spell focus. A scroll is a magic item, a normal wand being used as a focus is not a magic item.

 

[ECMO3]

2024 scroll: "If the spell is on your class’s spell list, you can read the scroll and cast the spell using its normal casting time and without providing any Material components."

Why did they deliberately remove the word "requires"? If they kept the old wording, then the interaction with Fast Hands would be clear. They changed it.

They obviously removed it deliberately so you could use it with Fast Hands. No magic items could be used with the old version of Fast Hands in the 2014 rules. They changed how Fast Hands worked and then changed the wording of how spell scrolls worked so that it is clear you can use them with the new version of Fast Hands.

Why do 2024 some magic items specifically add "As a magic action you may ..." ?

While other 2024 magic items (like scroll) avoid that syntax: "you can expend one charge to cast ..."

What 2024 Magic Items are you talking about? The only two they have published in the official rules are Potions of Healing and Spell Scrolls.

The SRD does say though that the DMG contains numerous magic items (presumably the current 2014 DMG since the other is not published yet).

They were editing and refining the rules, they were not careless.

I agree those writing the rules were not careless, I was referring to Crafword's statments in a historical context.

They specifically changed the wording so it would not apply. \

You have this backwards. They specifically changed it so it would apply.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

They obviously removed it deliberately so you could use it with Fast Hands. No magic items could be used with the old version of Fast Hands in the 2014 rules.

Which is not correct. It was only in the DMG where it was retconned that you can't use magic items with use an object action.

They changed how Fast Hands worked and then changed the wording of how spell scrolls worked so that it is clear you can use them with the new version of Fast Hands.

?

What 2024 Magic Items are you talking about? The only two they have published in the official rules are Potions of Healing and Spell Scrolls.

The SRD does say though that the DMG contains numerous magic items (presumably the current 2014 DMG since the other is not published yet).

Lets see.

I agree those writing the rules were not careless, I was referring to Crafword's statments in a historical context.

I think they were not as clear as they should have been.

You have this backwards. They specifically changed it so it would apply.

Hmmh. Totally unclear.
You cast the spell using a scroll.

I think either interpretation could be right.

 

[ECMO3]

Which is not correct. It was only in the DMG where it was retconned that you can't use magic items with use an object action.

The 2104 did not have magic items except potions of healing (which did use the usa an object action). In addition to the DMG, this was also covered in Sage Advice.

You cast the spell using a scroll.

I think either interpretation could be right.

In terms of the English it can be correct. It comes down to the following verbiage:

"If the spell is on your class’s spell list, you can read the scroll and cast the spell using its normal casting time and without providing any Material components."

If the underlined refers to one event then you can use Fast Hands (assuming a casting time of one action). You read the scroll and cast the spell in one action (the Magic Action). If this refers to two things reading first and then casting, with the reading not having an action then you could not use Fast Hands, but as noted earlier, that interpretation means there is no limit to the people that can read the scroll or the time between reading and casting.

I just don't think that is a reasonable interpretation.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

The 2104 did not have magic items except potions of healing (which did use the usa an object action). In addition to the DMG, this was also covered in Sage Advice.



In terms of the English it can be correct. It comes down to the following verbiage:

"If the spell is on your class’s spell list, you can read the scroll and cast the spell using its normal casting time and without providing any Material components."

why did you not underline the next 5 words?

If the underlined refers to one event then you can use Fast Hands (assuming a casting time of one action). You read the scroll and cast the spell in one action (the Magic Action). If this refers to two things reading first and then casting, with the reading not having an action then you could not use Fast Hands, but as noted earlier, that interpretation means there is no limit to the people that can read the scroll or the time between reading and casting.

I really don´t get how you come to this conclusion.

I just don't think that is a reasonable interpretation.

yes. because that was made up of thin air.

 

[ECMO3]

why did you not underline the next 5 words?

Because it wasn't relevant to explaining the ambiguity associated with the wording.

The five words you are talking about though are explicitly why a spell scroll with a spell that takes an action to cast can be used with fast hands.

I've said it many times but I will say it again:

A spell scroll is a magic item

A spell scroll with a spell on it that takes an action to cast requires the magic action to cast.

Therefore said spell scroll can be used with Fast Hands as a Bonus Action.

I will underline it here for you so you:

"If the spell is on your class’s spell list, you can read the scroll and cast the spell using its normal casting time and without providing any Material components."

Normal casting time is an action, so it uses a magic action and works with Fast Hands.

Case Closed (again).