D&D General Greyhawk Humanocentricism?

[Pauln6]

Greyhawk certainly took a lot of inspiration from Tolkien and I am fine with that. It does make it hard to justify some PC choices. The average village is fearful and xenophobic. Halflings, elves, and dwarves may be welcome or tolerated but a gigantic goliath or a woman with demon blood? I think it works as long as players and DMs see it as a role play opportunity and don't complain that it's so unfair that everyone hates my giant insectoid. In the real world, people in not very remote settlements hate people of different ethnicities, so it's not even unrealistic.

I think the problem with human-centric campaigns might come when no players want to play humans. So a group like Vox Machina (with one human) look like a bunch of weird outsiders to the average person.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

Maybe. But what about all the elves and various others in the forest?

Elves are typically portrayed as vegetarian, and therefore have no need of fish.

There are a couple of dwarves in town, but they would rather trade metalwork for fish than catch fish themselves. So most live where there are mines.

Halflings would be a liability on a human-scale fishing boat, and prefer a different type of home.

The fact that this is a major trading port?

It's a fishing village/small town with a side-line in smuggling. It's never been portrayed as a major trading port. Major trading ports have Customs and Excise, that's why the smugglers go to Saltmarsh!

I’m not saying folks live in the same houses but I absolutely could see lizard folk living on the outskirts for trade opportunities.

Lizard folk do live in their own settlement a couple of miles away. Close enough to trade, far enough away that the humans don't smell the rotting meat.

The reason you have all these species is they have there own niches.

 

[Pauln6]

Elves are typically portrayed as vegetarian, and therefore have no need of fish.

There are a couple of dwarves in town, but they would rather trade metalwork for fish than catch fish themselves. So most live where there are mines.

Halflings would be a liability on a human-scale fishing boat, and prefer a different type of home.

It's a fishing village/small town with a side-line in smuggling. It's never been portrayed as a major trading port. Major trading ports have Customs and Excise, that's why the smugglers go to Saltmarsh!

Lizard folk do live in their own settlement a couple of miles away. Close enough to trade, far enough away that the humans don't smell the rotting meat.

The reason you have all these species is they have there own niches.

I disliked the 3e version of Saltmarsh in DMG2. It felt like a tickbox exercise in how to convert a town to a different campaign world. I mean, a Lizardfolk embassy as opposed to a gang of armed lizardfolk turning up at the edge of town, making your guards nervous and demanding to see someone in charge... this is more like Greyhawk.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

I disliked the 3e version of Saltmarsh in DMG2. It felt like a tickbox exercise in how to convert a town to a different campaign world. I mean, a Lizardfolk embassy as opposed to a gang of armed lizardfolk turning up at the edge of town, making your guards nervous and demanding to see someone in charge... this is more like Greyhawk.

I’ve not read the 3rd edition version, but I assume a lizard folk embassy would be a natural consequence of advancing the timeline to after the U series, which (probably) resulted in humans and lizard folk uniting against a common enemy. Increased trade would account for the town having grown.

 

[Pauln6]

I’ve not read the 3rd edition version, but I assume a lizard folk embassy would be a natural consequence of advancing the timeline to after the U series, which (probably) resulted in humans and lizard folk uniting against a common enemy. Increased trade would account for the town having grown.

Hmm. Lizardfolk bureaucrats though? An 'embassy' in terms of a neutral meeting place near the swamp, perhaps, but not a building in the town centre. It just smacked too much of amanthropophormisation. Why can't lizardfolk remain lizardfolky?

 

[jasper]

My opinion: Greyhawk's supposed humanocentrism exists only in theory, not in practice.

Hardly any of the adventure modules are centered on humans. You're always going out and finding some enclave of giants or goblinoids or fishmen or wierd underdark race. Meanwhile, the game rules have always encouraged parties to include a variety of races (because that means a variety of characters with different capabilities).

CHANGE FINDING to FIGHTING. Most of the races were either background helpers or something to slay.

 

[jasper]

That’s not right. Saltmarsh is a big trading town. It’s several thousand people. It’s the largest community for miles around.

Why do you call it a “sleepy village”?

Give a page number where you are getting these numbers. page 15 has 27 buildings with encounters. And about 50 other buildings. The numbers of buildings vs population don't add up.

 

[TiQuinn]

So just how Humanocentric is your game and with the resurgence of Greyhawk how do you think the ideal of a "particulary humanocentric" world as a design principle would go down with contemporary players?

The only setting where I tend to favor humans is Ravenloft, which for me has more of a Victorian era vibe which doesn’t gel as well with Dragonborn or Tieflings, for instance. Greyhawk has never been humanocentric when I’ve used it and I never felt it needed to be, since that was more of a predilection for Gygax than it was something that really felt baked into the setting. My approach to D&D is that it has more in common with the Star Wars Universe than it does sword and sorcery books or LotR; it features a variety of species.

 

[Parmandur]

Greyhawk certainly took a lot of inspiration from Tolkien and I am fine with that. It does make it hard to justify some PC choices. The average village is fearful and xenophobic. Halflings, elves, and dwarves may be welcome or tolerated but a gigantic goliath or a woman with demon blood? I think it works as long as players and DMs see it as a role play opportunity and don't complain that it's so unfair that everyone hates my giant insectoid. In the real world, people in not very remote settlements hate people of different ethnicities, so it's not even unrealistic.

I think the problem with human-centric campaigns might come when no players want to play humans. So a group like Vox Machina (with one human) look like a bunch of weird outsiders to the average person.

Why are people talking about Tolkien like racial interactions are abnormal...? I literally just re-read the Lord of the Rings, it is less humabocentric than most Fantasy lit...

 

[Pauln6]

Why are people talking about Tolkien like racial interactions are abnormal...? I literally just re-read the Lord of the Rings, it is less humabocentric than most Fantasy lit...

Not if you zoom out. The non-human groups are small and isolationist or in downright opposition. The classic D&D group only kicks in at Rivendell and doesn't really last long but it's clearly an exception to see elves, dwarves, and men travelling together. It does highlight the storytelling problems with justifying a multiracial group getting together and staying together.

1e leaned heavily into the inter-species relationships, with a bit more leeway given to half-orcs and half-elves. Characters are the exceptions that prove the rules.