Spoilers Rings of Power is back!

[Paul Farquhar]

The audience need not be modern. Milton does exactly this with Satan in Paradise Lost. The idea is hardly new.

The cost is that Satan is no longer a mythotype; he becomes a humanised protagonist.

But it’s hard to execute well. Milton pulls it off, but his writing skills were rather better than P&M.

Milton and millions of other writers since have pulled it off. Despite Marvel's problems in the area you don't need to be a literary genius to write a relatable villain. And when it comes to theatre/film/TV its as much down to the actor's performance to sell it as to the writing. And clearly, when you are writing a story about the rise of Sauron, Sauron has to be a relatable villain protagonist. IMO RoP pulls it off successfully.

Sauron is an absent character from the story of his defeat, so his motives are not relevant. However, he is punished at the end, by being permanently banished from Heaven, so the author clearly considers him guilty of wrongdoing. Indeed, he receives the exact same punishment as Saruman, a being of the same essence who clearly had a choice and chance for redemption.

More significantly, RoP rather cleverly managed to give the orcs a choice and chance of redemption, thus fixing a problem Tolkien himself had with LotR.

 

[Zardnaar]

Milton and millions of other writers since have pulled it off. Despite Marvel's problems in the area you don't need to be a literary genius to write a relatable villain. And when it comes to theatre/film/TV its as much down to the actor's performance to sell it as to the writing. And clearly, when you are writing a story about the rise of Sauron, Sauron has to be a relatable villain protagonist. IMO RoP pulls it off successfully.

Sauron is an absent character from the story of his defeat, so his motives are not relevant. However, he is punished at the end, by being permanently banished from Heaven, so the author clearly considers him guilty of wrongdoing. Indeed, he receives the exact same punishment as Saruman, a being of the same essence who clearly had a choice and chance for redemption.

More significantly, RoP rather cleverly managed to give the orcs a choice and chance of redemption, thus fixing a problem Tolkien himself had with LotR.

Orcs doomed themselves. Adar gave a crap.

 

[Sepulchrave II]

Milton and millions of other writers since have pulled it off.

I don’t really think that millions of writers have taken an archetypal embodiment of evil and successfully cast them as the protagonist in a cosmic drama but YMMV.

Despite Marvel's problems in the area you don't need to be a literary genius to write a relatable villain.

Sure. But this isn’t about just any villain. See “archetypal embodiment of evil,” above.

And when it comes to theatre/film/TV it’s as much down to the actor's performance to sell it as to the writing.

Absolutely agree. And Mr Vickers has performed admirably, given the limitations he has to work within.

And clearly, when you are writing a story about the rise of Sauron, Sauron has to be a relatable villain protagonist.

Why?

Sauron is an absent character from the story of his defeat

I would argue that Sauron is virtually omnipresent in LotR; a palpable threat and menace, who looms over everything. He is not personalised because he is ..,an archetypal figure.

More significantly, RoP rather cleverly managed to give the orcs a choice and chance of redemption, thus fixing a problem Tolkien himself had with LotR.

Well, needless to say, my opinion differs.

 

[Alzrius]

We do if we want to use them to tell an interesting story for a modern audience.

Hard disagree here. The presentation of this as being a necessary characteristic in order to tell a story that people today would find interesting strikes me as being entirely unjustified in its certitude.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

I don’t really think that millions of writers have taken an archetypal embodiment of evil and successfully cast them as the protagonist in a cosmic drama but YMMV.

"archetypal embodiment of evil" is Sauron's role in LotR. Different story, different role. Tolkien uses him as the boss monster for the hero to fight in Beren and Luthien.

Sure. But this isn’t about just any villain. See “archetypal embodiment of evil,” above.

Absolutely agree. And Mr Vickers has performed admirably, given the limitations he has to work within.

Why?

Because when someone is the central character, if they have no personality it will be a very very boring story.

I would argue that Sauron is virtually omnipresent in LotR; a palpable threat and menace, who looms over everything. He is not personalised because he is ..,an archetypal figure.

Sure, that's his role in LotR. Obviously, that in not his role in RoP.

 

[Sepulchrave II]

Because when someone is the central character, if they have no personality it will be a very very boring story.

I thought we were talking about why it was necessary to portray Sauron as a “relatable villain” in a story about the rise of Sauron. Now you seem to want to talk about him having a personality when he’s the central character - these are rather different premises.

I have observed a pattern where you seem to repeatedly reframe your assertions when pressed on them, and I see little point in continuing.

Best to you.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

I thought we were talking about why it was necessary to portray Sauron as a “relatable villain” in a story about the rise of Sauron. Now you seem to want to talk about him having a personality when he’s the central character - these are rather different premises.

They are the same thing! To be a relatable villain he needs a personality. And obviously Sauron is the central character when the story is "How Sauron made the Rings of Power". He is a villain protagonist.

I have observed a pattern where you seem to repeatedly reframe your assertions when pressed on them, and I see little point in continuing.

I have observed a pattern where people accuse you of bad faith when they realise they have lost the argument.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Indeed. But Merry knows immediately who he is riding with, whereas in the book he somehow manages to remain oblivious for days (toilet breaks anyone?), because the author expects to surprise the reader.

Easier to pull that surprise off in a book anyway. As to the bathroom break issue, that exactly the sort of nitpick I thought you didn't care about.

 

[Micah Sweet]

"archetypal embodiment of evil" is Sauron's role in LotR. Different story, different role. Tolkien uses him as the boss monster for the hero to fight in Beren and Luthien.

Because when someone is the central character, if they have no personality it will be a very very boring story.

Sure, that's his role in LotR. Obviously, that in not his role in RoP.

I have to agree with this. Sauron's been around a long time. Over the Ages he's performed many roles.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

Easier to pull that surprise off in a book anyway. As to the bathroom break issue, that exactly the sort of nitpick I thought you didn't care about.

I was thinking it spoke to authorial intent, and therefore was significant.