Baumi
Adventurer
Just a small thing, but I think climb speed only increases your speed while climbing, but you still have to make climb checks as usual.
D&D (2024) Dancing bards and true strike.
- Thread starter Valetudo
- Start date
Just a small thing, but I think climb speed only increases your speed while climbing, but you still have to make climb checks as usual.
abirdcall
(she/her)
That would be like making a walking check.
Most creatures have climb speeds that are equal to their walking speed.
It works like swim and fly speeds. They can just do it.
mellored
Legend
And Glamor can give 50 THP.
Which also stacks with resistance.
It's nice to have options, sure. It's not worthless.
But it's still just an alternative use if BI. And not necessarily a better one.
Like you said, you run out.
Right. I was sleepy.
Still, the THP for the party is very good at low levels, until you can get enough slots for the charm.
Cutting words: save 25 HP, +1 to 3 skills.
Mantle of Inspiration: 50 THP, 2 extra known spells, one extra BI per long rest.
Magical Discovery: superior 2 extra known spells.
Mantle of Majesty: 2 extra known "spells". 1 extra level 3 slot.
Peerless Skill: can use BI on yourself.
Unbreakable Majesty: a level 4 "spell slot" once per short rest.
Yes, but they can't time it with the Fireball and the AoE damage prevention can affect more targets.
A reaction has more control over when that damage is prevented instead of the tho. There are others sources of Thp as well that can be used with Cutting Words while Glamour cannot stack those effects.
Thp has better range from the bard once given. It's not like I'm arguing Glamour is a poor choice. Cutting Words is an alternative reasonable choice.
Beguiling Magic, Mantle of Inspiration, Tandem Footwork, and Combat Inspiration are also alternative uses for BI. They're still useful.
Cutting Words is an expanded option. It's also not necessary a worse use of BI because a reaction operates better than a bonus action in it's use.
A Lore bard can use that reaction on any turn. They can't use a bonus action to give out a BI die on any turn to another PC who might need it.
That also happens with other colleges. Dance uses inspiration quickly on initiative and Glamour on Beguiling Magic and Mantle of Inspiration.
Thp are good but they don't stack. Cutting Words works with any source of Thp.
Cutting Words saves 55 HP if there 11 targets in the area. Jack of all Trades rounds down so extra proficiencies outpace that
Mantle of Inspiration is limited to CHA bonus targets, which isn't typically 5 at those earlier levels. If we're assuming an average roll at then it's 21 Thp (7*3) where Cutting Words in a party of 5 is 15 or 20 damage saved, 18.5 on average over time used that way.
Mantle of Inspiration becomes 65 Thp on average eventually in a party of 5 where Cutting Words falls behind but never helps that 6th or 7th or 8th person, and never gets used in response to a threat on another turn.
Free Charm Person and free Mirror Image is nice but those are just another way of spending a limited resource like your argument against Cutting Words.
I would argue Magical Discoveries isn't "superior spells known". Just more spells known, which is good because of the spells prepped limits.
Glamour also adds Command here for a third spell.
The difference is Magical Discoveries has a lot more control over which spells, can be used on higher level spells, and can be used for cantrips.
Plus those extra skill proficiencies have become +3 from the proficiency bonus and Jack of all Trades has remained+1 (until 9th level).
That's not quite it. Peerless Skill is in response to a failure and doesn't get used if the roll remains a failure. This stacks with the other bonuses from Jack of all Trades or those extra skills or Expertise with that use on self ability that's better at changing failure to success or consistently hitting higher DC's.
It's also a bonus to other ability checks like what all bards used to have with Jack of all Trades. Fail a Dispel Magic check on a 3rd level slot? Expend a BI die and now it succeeds. No lost action, no using a higher level spell slot that can be used for something else, no another round of the spell being dispelled.
I think there's more going on with Peerless Skill than you realize. The ability either changes a failure into a success or doesn't cost anything.
Xeviat
Dungeon Mistress, she/her
That seems like a perfectly reasonable addition. Free unarmed attack when you spend bardic inspiration, bonus action unarmed attack otherwise.
I use true Strike with my dancer bard's quarterstaff, and then unarmed attacks on the side. Dancer bard with her own pole for pole vaulting is fun.
mellored
Legend
why is preventing 5 damage from a specific fireball more important than preventing 10 from anything?
And the timing is "when they don't have THP". Which could be first thing in the morning.
If you don't take enough damage to lose your Inspiring Leader THP, then you already won.
Yes. Alternative uses are useful.
But that's all Lore gets. Small skill bump, an alternative BI use, and alternative spell slot use, and another alternative BI use.
Dance gets a small skill bump, an alternative (arguably the best) BI use, AC bump, an occasional extra attack, and group evasion.
Valor gets an AC bump, alternative BI uses, and the occasional extra attack.
Glamor gets an alternative BI use, 1 extra BI use per long rest, alternative spell slot uses, 1 extra 3rd level slot (effectively), and a once per short rest extra ability.
And sure, there will be scenarios that Lore is best. If you don't have any difficul combat in your campaign, Valor isn't giving you anything. But that's not the norm.
Peter BOSCO'S
Adventurer
Dancing Bard MUST be weaker on the offense than other bards, because they are stronger defensively since they are adding their CHA Mod to their AC's, and AC is critically important. How much weaker is the proper question.
Paul Farquhar
Legend
That's because you only value offensive abilities, whereas this subclass is focused on team support.
The group initiative buff alone can win a fight without the enemy getting an action off. And the bard doesn't need to do any damage at all to achieve that.
Because if those thp are lost before the Glamour Bard has a chance to renew the thp that cannot be done. Cutting Words can be done in response to a large threat while preemptively granting thp can be whittled away through minor threats.
This also gets back to the Cutting Words preventing damage stacks with any source of thp while Mantle of Inspiration cannot.
It's also not a 2:1 ration because Cutting Words against an AoE protects everyone. Mantle of Inspiration protects against a scale of targets with a minimum of 1 that goes up to 5 and typically starts with 3 targets. Which 3 or 4 or 5 targets did the Glamour bard select and which did they not? The party is also mounts, animal companions, familiars, and possibly some retainers and NPC's in the area.
The time is "on another person's turn". Using Mantle of Inspiration first thing in the morning wastes the movement granting portion of the effect, but a person can get cheesy after Font of Inspiration, rest for the night, spam Mantle of Inspiration, rest for an hour, then move out.
That still doesn't change that any other source of thp also works and Cutting Words works along with thp to prevent more damage.
I think you missed the point there. Cutting Words works with other sources of thp. Mantle of Inspiration causes someone to replace those thp. IE you "already won" when Cutting Words causes the party to not take enough damage to lose the Inspiring Leader thp by preventing that damage in conjunction with a source of thp that give more thp and to more targets.
Yes, like Cutting Words is a useful alternative use.
Jack of All Trades gives a +1 bonus from levels 1 through 8, a +2 bonus from levels 9 through 16, and a +3 bonus from levels 17 through 20. The entire ability is just a small skill bump. Proficiency is a small skill bump on top of a small skill bump to better hit DC's. It's +2 from levels 1 through 4, +3 from levels 5 through 8, +4 from levels 9 thorugh 12, +5 from levels 13 through 16, and +6 from level 17 up. Here's what that looks like in side by side comparison...
Level | JoaT | Prof | Diff |
3 | 1 | 2 | 1 |
4 | 1 | 2 | 1 |
5 | 1 | 3 | 2 |
6 | 1 | 3 | 2 |
7 | 1 | 3 | 2 |
8 | 1 | 3 | 2 |
9 | 2 | 4 | 2 |
10 | 2 | 4 | 2 |
11 | 2 | 4 | 2 |
12 | 2 | 4 | 2 |
13 | 2 | 5 | 3 |
14 | 2 | 5 | 3 |
15 | 2 | 5 | 3 |
16 | 2 | 5 | 3 |
17 | 3 | 6 | 3 |
18 | 3 | 6 | 3 |
19 | 3 | 6 | 3 |
20 | 3 | 6 | 3 |
The small difference in proficiency is only 1 point for 2 early levels. After that it's a reasonable improvement. We cannot consider Jack of all Trades a useful bonus and not consider proficiency, which is always the same or better, not a useful bonus. +3 is 3x better than +1. ;-)
We just agreed that alternative uses are useful.
It's not just an alternative for spell slots. It's extra spells prepared from a large list and control over which spell levels. And I seem to have to repeat this a lot for some reason, but Magical Discoveries...
...allows for cantrips as well, but Magical Secrets...
...requires the spells be from the prepared spells. Cantrips are not prepared spells as shown in the class progression.
They are just known per the description in the class. Magical Discoveries adds spell options and we just agreed alternative uses are useful, can can add cantrips as well, which do not cost that spell slot resource. Magical Secrets cannot add to spells prepped and cannot add to cantrips. This gives Magical Discoveries some clear advantages over Magical Secrets and earlier.
The other "alternate BI dice use" transforms failed ability checks or attack rolls into successes. How is that not good? It's almost as good as the Rogue capstone (Stroke of Luck) but can be done a lot earlier and a lot more often.
You've already pointed out that useful alternatives are useful so why wouldn't I consider this useful alternative useful on a Lore bard?
Just turning misses into hits with cantrips is useful. 16 damage is much better than 0 damage. Bards aren't great at damage but that accuracy the number of times it can be used makes a difference compared to a Glamour bard. Turning a failed stealth check into a successful stealth check while using Invisibility seems hella useful.
Peerless Skill is lit playing to the skills aspect of a bard.
Not really. If you use a tool (musical instrument) to perform and use the perform skill you have advantage on the check anyway. Dance bards just don't need the instrument to do it. That's worse than extra skill proficiency being "a small bump" by far.
At 6th level when Dance bards get that we're comparing it to Magical Discoveries, Extra Attack (with cantrips as an attack), and Mantle of Majesty.
At the level Tandem Footwork becomes available Glamour and Lore bards are gaining alternative spell slot uses and Valor is gaining a combat bonus that's not on either resource.
Tandem Footwork is good, but I don't agree that it's the best in every situation. It's pretty limited to combat, and it will use up a lot of those BI dice.
Yup, a 16 AC instead of a 15 AC.
A very occasional attack. Dance is using those BI dice on Tandem Footwork, which doesn't generate that attack.
Useful, but the 5' range tends to minimize the size of that group.
Dance bards have uses, for sure. Those are just different from other colleges.
They have the best AC options until much higher levels. The extra attack isn't that occasional. It's pretty much every time they cast a spell at 14th level. At 6th level if they want to cast a cantrip they might as well attack and cast a cantrip. At 14th level if they cast a spell they get a bonus action attack.
That's a lot more attacks that the Dance bard will ever see let alone the Glamour or Lore bards.
I like Peerless Skill better than Unbreakable Majesty. More uses in and out of combat with more control over how often it can be used.
It's what type of bard I'm making that suits them. I like the Dance bard on a caster for the evasive / defensive options and initiative is very useful on a caster.
If I am making a Glamour bard it's still a caster bard but at that point I know I'm going with a traditional trope of the enchanter / illusionist as the style of caster.
If I am making a Valor bard that character will be front line support casting spells and grabbing some attacks in the process.
If I am make a Lore bard I'm leaning into the skill interactions. Bards are a "skilled class" and I think that is the college that leans into the skills concept the best. Like I argued, I think Peerless Skill is something players are sleeping on in the way it works. ;-)
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