D&D (2024) Uncommon items - actually common?

[Micah Sweet]

The amount is the same. "50 gp of ruby dust" is describing an amount of ruby dust. (Presumably about 1% of the dust one gets from grinding up a 5000 gp ruby.)

It's described in money terms rather than troy units of measure (or similar) because (i) no one really cares about the troy units, and (ii) the significance of it is that it is a monetary cost for casting the spell.

For the same reason, D&D has - since its inception - described gems and jewellery in terms of their gp value rather than their size and other physical and design properties.

EDIT: @Crimson Longinus posted much the same point not far upthread.

But if the price changes (and it should, because prices change), then the amount should change. And it makes no sense IMO for the amount of something you need for a spell to change based on that thing's current and/or regional market value. Therefore, the amount needed should be the constant.

I'm struggling to understand how this isn't self-evident. Please help me understand where we differ.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

Should that be 12 gp and 5 sp?

Yes it should, and that's what I intended to write, but the four ounces apparently short-circuited my brain. Then again, if we want realistic fluctuating prices, then certainly the relative value of gold and silver would fluctuate too!

 

[Micah Sweet]

The same will apply to anything. The price of swords will vary, price of healing potions will vary, the price of ten feet poles will vary so why lists prices for anything? The answer is that we need the information of the "default" price, even if we would vary it by circumstances. And you're not actually imagining that this price information would not exist at all, are you? Instead you probably think that the spells says "4 ounces of ruby dust" and then there is some price list that tells you that an ounce of ruby dust costs twelve gold five silver. But that is just total waste of time of flipping pages and calculating. You still end up the same default price of 50gp for that spell component.

If you going to use a default price for a commodity (which is fine), that price should have an amount of the commodity attached to it. 50 gp is 4 ounces of ruby dust, for example. Therefore, if the price of ruby dust changes (and again, it should), then the amount you get for that default price should change too.

 

[Micah Sweet]

I just don't get where you're going with this.

No D&D rulebook, module, adventure, etc has ever described a cache of gems in terms of colour, size, purity etc. It just describes them in terms of gp value. Are you really calling for that to change? Is there any RPG that takes the approach you are advocating?

I think 1e did use some of those terms, actually.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Yes it should, and that's what I intended to write, but the four ounces apparently short-circuited my brain. Then again, if we want realistic fluctuating prices, then certainly the relative value of gold and silver would fluctuate too!

Yup. It should. What you do is you make a list of commodities with default pricing and a system to determine how they fluctuate.

 

[tetrasodium]

The same will apply to anything. The price of swords will vary, price of healing potions will vary, the price of ten feet poles will vary so why lists prices for anything? The answer is that we need the information of the "default" price, even if we would vary it by circumstances. And you're not actually imagining that this price information would not exist at all, are you? Instead you probably think that the spells says "4 ounces of ruby dust" and then there is some price list that tells you that an ounce of ruby dust costs twelve gold four silver. But that is just total waste of time of flipping pages and calculating. You still end up the same default price of 50gp for that spell component.

Prices are listed for a relevant unit of each item. Some examples are one greatsword (30gp/each). Rather than finding a crate in the barracks with 300gp worth of greatsword & 500gp of heavy crossbow under a bag with 50gp worth of ginger you find a crate with 10 greatswords & 10 heavy crossbows with a 50 pound bag of ginger.

The relevant unit for nearly every spell component is pounds even if much of the weight is the container & care needed to keep it safe (ie like 1pound potions that only contain a couple ounces)

Might as well give some eyeball measurements one pound of diamond instead of ounces since the inventory & carrying capacity is measured in pounds...

That one is notable because it's a single diamond, diamonds themselves are pretty common (and cheap) if you don't care about flaws because you plan to grind it to dust. When you don't care about the quality of the diamonds used & just want dust though, diamond dust is super cheap with just under 2268 carats to a pound & that link lists 3000carats at 30$.

 

[Oofta]

I have seen it done, legitimately, in a D&D-style 3pp game. It takes some work in design to crunch the numbers, but you can create a reasonably viable fantasy economy.

For a specific setting? Specific timeframe and region in that setting? How is it going to be any more accurate when it's all just make believe? Having more details and explanation doesn't necessarily make it any more accurate.

Because, as @Crimson Longinus pointed out, there is no reason for anything to have a consistent price. How much is a gold piece worth? What's the level of technology for making steel for that sword or armor? Does the world have automatons that can help refine the metal? Is there a good source of iron (or other requires metals) available? Do they have a way of harnessing fire elementals
The cost should vary not only by campaign but by region and even things like social class and connections.

The other aspect of needing to spend 100 gp on something is that magic does not have to be based on science or alchemy. It can be based on symbolism, effort, willpower and sacrifice. It can just be that you need to sacrifice 100 gp because of the amount you are sacrificing. It has nothing to do with the physical amount being used.

That, and D&D is a game about play pointy eared elves and slaying literal dragons.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

If you going to use a default price for a commodity (which is fine), that price should have an amount of the commodity attached to it. 50 gp is 4 ounces of ruby dust, for example.

It can be that, but it doesn't actually matter.

Therefore, if the price of ruby dust changes (and again, it should), then the amount you get for that default price should change too.

But you don't need to know the weight or amount of the ruby dust for that! If ruby prices have gone up due circumstances, then that component the spell description lists as "50 GPs worth of ruby dust" now costs 75 gold when you go by it. That's it, super simple, the exact amount of ruby dust this is doesn't matter.

 

[pemerton]

I think 1e did use some of those terms, actually.

AD&D has charts listing different gem types for different values of gem. But the treasure tables lists gems by value, not by type. And the types are all grouped as 10 gp, 50 gp, 100 gp, 500 gp, 1000 gp or 5000 gp. There is no rule that tells us how much bigger a diamond has to be than the "average" to be worth (say) 20000 gp.

LIkewise, there jewellery table has descriptors for different values of jewellery, but only in the most general terms (eg gold + gems). Is a 500 gp piece of jewellery that is "gold + gems" a pendant, a brooch, a ring, a crown - and of what size? The rules don't tell us.

D&D always measures gems and jewellery by gp value, and everything else is just flavour.

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But if the price changes (and it should, because prices change), then the amount should change. And it makes no sense IMO for the amount of something you need for a spell to change based on that thing's current and/or regional market value. Therefore, the amount needed should be the constant.

Yes, no one disagrees with that.

If the price goes up, then - as I posted a little bit upthread, and as @Crimson Longinus has posted immediately upthread - it cost more than 50 gp to purchase "50 gp worth" of ruby dust. Just the same as, if the GM decides that there is a huge demand for brooches, and has narrated the 500 gp piece of jewellery as a gold brooch set with an amethyst, then maybe the PCs can sell their "500 gp piece of jewellery" for more than 500 gp.

 

[Bayushi_seikuro]

I like gems and trade goods measured in gold piece value - a 50gp onyx, a 25gp trade bar of silver - and I like letting players make skill checks or roleplay to increase the values.

To me, the one case where making magic items have a static price would be in 3.x Forgotten Realms, where the Red Wizards had trade enclaves/embassies in major cities where their apprentices made magic items. Their reasoning for it was it essentially let their apprentices power-level, while possibly being a great place to spy on Waterdeep or Neverwinter.