D&D (2024) Should full casters and Monks have one weapon mastery?

[EzekielRaiden]

No

And Martials should also get Weapon Grandmasteries.

What sort of shape do you think these would take?

As both of those can be acquired with 1 level of fighter, with heavy armor,martial weapons and 2 free "healing potions" per day, they are not really that valuable.

what it is overvalued is the feats to get those features outside multiclassing.

You do realize every single thing I was talking about was a way to get those features outside of multiclassing, or even outside of feats, right? So....if you're not spending any resources beyond your subclass pick, I should think that that would be at risk of diluting the value of something.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

increase bardic inspiration number of dice to bard level+cha mod
reduce casting to 2/3rds.

done.

let bards be best at supporting.

Nah. I like having bards that are actually worth playing.

 

[Minigiant]

What sort of shape do you think these would take?

Around 10th level, 1 or more of the weapons you have Mastery in can get an upgraded form.

Like Cleave can be 2 attack.
Push pushes further.

Or select high heroic Grandmasteries like Crumple, Skewer, or Decapitate

 

[ezo]

After playing 2024 for a couple months I am thinking about giving full casters each one weapon mastery. There are two reasons for this.

I wouldn't even if I played 2024. Casters already have enough going for them, they don't need to take the martials shiny new toy.

First Truestrike is the most common Cantrip I am seeing cast in combat now, but it is not doing the cool effects that martials are doing with attacking (or using Truestrike).

Good, it wasn't meant to. It was meant to allow casters to make weapon attacks without having to rely on lower STR or DEX scores to do so.

Second the Gish classes seem really gimped and a little less dynamic in melee. Valor Bards are super powerful and lots of Clerics and Bladelocks are pretty effective in melee too, but something is missing compared to the martials. Something is missing for Monks too. The end result is the casters end up taking a Paladin or Ranger level anyway for the mastery, without losing a spell slot.

Gish "classes" are Paladins and Rangers, who already get weapon mastery IIRC.

Gish "subclasses" are not as dedicated to weapons as martials and so do not have weapon mastery by default. As you already say, these options are "super powerful" and "pretty effective in melee" without weapon mastery, so you want to make them even more OP?

Monks in 2024 are crazy OP as everyone knows.

If I kept it to one single mastery the martials would still have more weapons, so I don't feel like it would step on their toes much.

It would incredibly step on their toes. Most PC use one or two weapons AT MOST, and a spellcaster using a weapon will most likely ONLY use THAT weapon because that is what they use...

Thoughts?

Overall, it is unnecessary, unbalancing, and unfair to non-casters. If casters want weapon mastery there are other ways they can get them and sacrificing something for that benefit makes more sense IMO than just gifting yet another martial toy to casters.

However, I think this thread isn't about really asking for other peoples' opinions so much as hoping to see support for something you want to do anyway? Given that, as long as you and your group are happy with it and no one feels their non-caster is cheated by it, just try it and have fun playing your own way.

 

[ezo]

And Bards should be half-casters. Never should be full-casters, never should get expertise by default.

Bards are more often depicted as dabblers in everything, not focused and dedicated enough to be full caster or have expertise by default.

 

[ECMO3]

Because he’s spending most of time studying magic, not training to mastery rather than mere proficiency with a staff.

Look, I think the first thing to consider is class balance, and everyone here but you seems to agree that adding mastery to full casters is unbalancing.

Secondly, I think counting “unique features” is meaningless. How do you stack a few unique features against a full range of spells that allow far more customization and flexibility?

I know you love optimizing and prefer playing full casters. I think your biases are pretty clear on this issue.

Edit: also, I think arguing that one mastery is not that great compared to multiple is pretty facetious. Most martials do almost all of their fighting with one or at most two weapons, and your hex blade certainly doesn’t want more than one anyway.

So first I play all classes except Barbarians and Druids, and I play Rangers, Rogues and Warlocks the most.

Second the reason I mentioned "unique features" is because this was called out in the post I replied to.

The fact he is not training more is why it would only be one weapon, and it is not just full casters, it is also Monks - a class that trains to use things like maces and axes with finesse, why shouldn't they get a Mastery, they are certainly spending more time training than Rangers or Rogues right?

 

[ECMO3]

IMO. It’s a single level dip into fighter for weapon masteries. If caster wants them then giving up a level of caster goodness seems to be a fair trade. IMO. This feels more to be about having cake and eating it to than opening up new character options.

Usually it is Ranger or Paladin if they have the stats for it since they don't lose a caster level, and especially in the case of Paladin on a Gish, they pick up some solid melee combat spells.

In terms of thematics the Ranger or Paladin level is often difficult to remedy and it starts to get very cookie cutter, especially if you are tying story to class.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

After playing 2024 for a couple months I am thinking about giving full casters each one weapon mastery. There are two reasons for this.

First Truestrike is the most common Cantrip I am seeing cast in combat now, but it is not doing the cool effects that martials are doing with attacking (or using Truestrike).

Working as intended...

even if I would love that war clerics or valour bard get a mastery option, it seems fair to me that martials have theirnspecial thing.

Second the Gish classes seem really gimped and a little less dynamic in melee. Valor Bards are super powerful and lots of Clerics and Bladelocks are pretty effective in melee too, but something is missing compared to the martials.

Because they get high level spells to compensate for the lack of masteries.

Something is missing for Monks too.

More debatable. I think the monks should have been designed with masteries in mind, so a nick monk would not get extra 1d6(+dex) damage for 1 level in ranger, rogue or even fighter.

The end result is the casters end up taking a Paladin or Ranger level anyway for the mastery, without losing a spell slot.

But having access to their highest spells one level later. Which results in having high level spells always one level later. And their high level features too.
To me a very reasonable tradeoff.

If I kept it to one single mastery the martials would still have more weapons, so I don't feel like it would step on their toes much.

Oh it really does step on their toes.

Thoughts?

See above.

 

[FrogReaver]

Usually it is Ranger or Paladin if they have the stats for it since they don't lose a caster level, and especially in the case of Paladin on a Gish, they pick up some solid melee combat spells.

In terms of thematics the Ranger or Paladin level is often difficult to remedy and it starts to get very cookie cutter, especially if you are tying story to class.

Sure, but there’s higher stat requirements for those. And it’s still a slowdown for your higher level spells.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

As both of those can be acquired with 1 level of fighter, with heavy armor,martial weapons and 2 free "healing potions" per day, they are not really that valuable.

what it is overvalued is the feats to get those features outside multiclassing.

Which seems to be a reasonable cost. Maybe 2 levels of fighter would be my preference.
I really think a full hybrid build should not cost 1 but two levels of multiclass. So you are always one spell levele behind as spellcaster.