D&D (2024) The Lackluster Ranger

[ezo]

Rangers are Wilderness Survival experts.

"Rogue skills? Excuse me, but I don't see your name on these skills."

And Rogues are Stealth experts.

Rangers can have expertise in Survival all day long as far as I am concerned if you want to do that.

 

[CreamCloud0]

Giving Rangers and other classes Expertise is a simple but sloppy solution IMO which devalues the feature.

There are other avenues to achieving this besides expertise:

• advantage (which is not easy to get on skill checks for an individual short of magic)
• flat bonus (but 5E avoids these like the plague...)
• variable bonus (a die roll instead of a flat bonus is more "5E")
• double ability modifier (not proficiency, something I always liked for Prodigy instead of double proficiency)
• allow rerolls (instead of advantage, like proficiency uses per long rest--popular with 5E)
• and probably others if I thought more about it.

For example, granting Rangers advantage to all ability checks in a favored terrain would help with exploration, stealth, "lore" checks, combat via Initiative and for surprise via Perception, etc. It wouldn't rely on "magic", but represent enhanced knowledge and practice and such in those terrains.

I don’t give a fig about ‘devaluing’ expertise, what’s the point of gatekeeping it exclusively to rogue when the other martial classes that are also outstripped by casters exist and could benefit from it too? IMO it should’ve been given to all the martials, sure rogue can have more as the ‘skill’ class but using things like expertise, weapon masteries, extra movement speed and types, better natural recovery, fighting styles, improved saves and more, you build up martials by giving them a consistent improved reliable baseline through these kinds of things rather than the expendable powerful spells of casters. But you’ve got to actually give them to them to do that.

 

[Corinnguard]

Rangers can have expertise in Survival all day long as far as I am concerned if you want to do that.

I am more interested in having a stealthy Ranger.

 

[ezo]

I don’t give a fig about ‘devaluing’ expertise, what’s the point of gatekeeping it exclusively to rogue when the other martial classes that are also outstripped by casters exist and could benefit from it too?

Just because casters do it via magic doesn't make it good design to do it to the Rogue and Expertise for other martials.

Two wrongs don't make a right, right?

I'd rather Rangers have advantage on skill checks. It is hard to get without magic or Help, and since Rangers typically "work alone" when scouting or whatever, thematically it makes more sense IMO. Also, allowing them to have it in any ability check in favored terrain is very thematic and a strong feature to my mind.

I am more interested in having a stealthy Ranger.

They can already do that and don't need Expertise to be effective at it. Sure, without magic they might not be as good as the Rogue, but they are still pretty good IME without it. They never got it in 2014, and Rangers stealthed very well without it IME.

People complain about taking away toys from this class or that class, and IMO Expertise belongs to the Rogue. In such cases as Weapon Masteries for Casters, Rangers who want Expertise even in 2014 can gain it either by multiclassing or a feat. It hardly needs to be a core feature for the class.

 

[Ashrym]

What "ranger options" am I taking away??

Oh, you mean something I am suggesting to replace with other features that don't take away the what should be uniques aspects of other classes.

So your solution to the ranger "problem" is to take expertise away from them but then give it or something similar back to them and then take expertise away from bards? To help rangers because rogues are stepping on rangers' toes?

You're still not making much of an argument.

People complain about taking away toys from this class or that class, and IMO Expertise belongs to the Rogue.

How arbitrary of you to make such a claim with nothing to support it.

Here are the PHB texts...

Invoking magic through music, dance, and verse, Bards are expert at inspiring others, soothing hurts, disheartening foes, and creating illusions. Bards believe the multiverse was spoken into existence and that remnants of its Words of Creation still resound and glimmer on every plane of existence. Bardic magic attempts to harness those words, which transcend any language.

Anything can inspire a new song or tale, so Bards are fascinated by almost everything. They become masters of many things, including performing music, working magic, and making jests.

A Bard’s life is spent traveling, gathering lore, telling stories, and living on the gratitude of audiences, much like any other entertainer. But Bards’ depth of knowledge and mastery of magic sets them apart.

I bolded and underlined something you missed.

Far from bustling cities, amid the trees of trackless forests and across wide plains, Rangers keep their unending watch in the wilderness. Rangers learn to track their quarry as a predator does, moving stealthily through the wilds and hiding themselves in brush and rubble.

Thanks to their connection with nature, Rangers can also cast spells that harness primal powers of the wilderness. A Ranger’s talents and magic are honed with deadly focus to protect the world from the ravages of monsters and tyrants.

and

Rogues rely on cunning, stealth, and their foes’ vulnerabilities to get the upper hand in any situation. They have a knack for finding the solution to just about any problem. A few even learn magical tricks to supplement their other abilities. Many Rogues focus on stealth and deception, while others refine skills that help them in a dungeon environment, such as climbing, finding and disarming traps, and opening locks.

In combat, Rogues prioritize subtle strikes over brute strength. They would rather make one precise strike than wear an opponent down with a barrage of blows.

Some Rogues began their careers as criminals, while others used their cunning to fight crime. Whatever a Rogue’s relation to the law, no common criminal or officer of the law can match the subtle brilliance of the greatest Rogues.

I bolded and underlined phrases that include "knack", "many", "refine", and "focus".

I'm good with all 3 skill classes having expertise as intended. But I would point out the only class in those descriptions that uses words like "expert" and "master" is the bard. Quit trying to steal bard toys, lol. ;-P

 

[Corinnguard]

Rangers who want Expertise even in 2014 can gain it either by multiclassing or a feat. It hardly needs to be a core feature for the class.

Or by taking Deft Explorer (Canny) instead of Favored Terrain at 1st level. An option that was given to Rangers in Tasha's Cauldron of Everything in 5e. This option, along with several others from Tasha's Cauldron of Everything, became a core feature for the 2024 version of the class.

Besides, there is nothing wrong with wanting to make your Ranger super-effective at what they do.

 

[Minigiant]

It's a clear aspect lost the reversal of Class Groups.

Bard, Ranger, and Rogue were supposed to have a ton of skill proficiency and a class based bonus to some of their core class skills,

Expertise was only used for everyone because

1. It was easy
2. It was tested by 10 years of play.
3. The 2014 bonuses didn't work
4. WOTC feared players multiclassing and stacking up skill bonuses to make double expert bonus the norm.

If it were me

1. Rogue would get Expertise
2. Ranger would get chooseable features that let them ignore checks like Climb/Swim Speed for Athletics or Auto-forage and Auto-Track for Survival
3. Bard gets JOAT and can Inspire themselves.

 

[CreamCloud0]

personally if i got my way:
-rogue gets expertise on 3 class skills and 4 floating expertise (2 at 1st, 2 at 6th)
-fighter, barb and monk get expertise on 3 class skills
-ranger gets expertise on 2 class skills (i know they were an expert but they're still a halfcaster too)
-rogue gets reliable talent on all skills at 5th
-fighter, barb, monk and ranger get reliable talent on 4 class or proficient skills at 5th
-RIP bards, it must be so hard being a fullcaster and not getting expertise, you still get jack of all trades

 

[Rushbolt]

While originally I did not agree with people stating the Ranger should not be given abilities that are part of the Rogue class, I am starting to come around to it now. Building a wilderness survival class well absolutely means you need to stay away from abilities like Expertise because including it uses too many of the precious few class feature slots that should be actually used to reinforce the identity of the class. If the class gives the player all the reasons needed to maximize their WIS score as early as possible the Ranger will stay ahead of the Rogue with Expertise. It would be more beneficial to take Expertise and any Dexterity-oriented features, including saving throw proficiency, out of the Ranger class. It would make more sense to lean in to spreading WIS bonuses into other places they don't normally apply. This gives more reason to invest in WIS and just basically maximizes those skills without needing to build in Expertise. WIS bonuses being applied to non-WIS saves and the Gloom Stalker WIS bonus to initiative just becoming part of the class would be a good start. Finally, allowing WIS bonus to replace DEX and STR for attack and possibly damage bonuses on weapon attack rolls would also really go a long way in shoring up the classes multi-ability score dependency issues.

I believe that WotC was trying to build the Primeval Awareness spells from Tasha's into the class just by increasing the number of spells the Ranger can prepare, but this did not go over well because they didn't explain that at any point. I have no idea why that option was not presented in any video or article about the class to explain it. Alternately, put the Primeval Awareness spells into the Hunter and/or Beast Master class to keep that flavor. I can make a Beast Master Ranger right now and not be able to cast Speak with Animals or Animal Friendship. That doesn't even make sense!

Finally, a note on Climb and Swim checks when you have a Climb and Swim speed. I believe a lot of people are thinking of the Spider Climb ability of some monsters and confusing that with just having a Climb speed. I do play at conventions and rules are run as written more often than not there for consistency. In organized play the Ranger would absolutely need to make Climb and Swim checks if the adventure called for it. They would also be very bad at them unless they were more STR-based. There is nothing in the rules that says having a Climb or Swim speed gives you bonuses to those checks or allows you to forego them. I'm not a big fan of the way these rules are written and I could definitely see houseruling an adjustment, but the fact remains the feature is written poorly considering the rules actually present in the 2024 PH.

 

[Minigiant]

If it were up to me there would be Skill Roles

Athlete
Naturalist
Orator
Sage
Etc.

The Ranger's problem with skill roles is that the community expects Rangers to great Naturalists, Sneaks, and Watchers. It's too many skills and too many subsystems which aren't supported.