D&D General “‘Scantily Clad and Well Proportioned’: Sexism and Gender Stereotyping in the Gaming Worlds of TSR and Dungeons & Dragons.”

[Umbran]

Two different flavors of prudes.

Mod Note:
Noting sexism is not being a prude.

And, for insulting people, you're out of this discussion.

 

[Gradine]

All I can say is that I appreciate all of the kickass ladies and theydies and sundry who have helped to make this hobby WAY more comfortable for the non-masculine than it was at its inception and an uncomfortably, unacceptably long time thereafter.

It's gotten to the point where most of my new recruits are female-identifying.

 

[Steampunkette]

All I can say is that I appreciate all of the kickass ladies and theydies and sundry who have helped to make this hobby WAY more comfortable for the non-masculine than it was at its inception and an uncomfortably, unacceptably long time thereafter.

It's gotten to the point where most of my new recruits are female-identifying.

Well, yes, but you give off the vibe of someone super cool to hang out with, so no one should be surprised. <3

 

[Bedrockgames]

For me, context is important. I like the David Martin painting as well. If I owned a 1973 Chevrolet Van I'd want Martin's picture painted on the side of it. Or maybe a unicorn flying through space. I'm a multifaceted man with depth after all. Is it something I'd leave on the coffee table where guests might see it? No.

One of the many problems with these discussions is any one of us can point out the merits of a work of art someone else approves of. Me, personally, I think there's a place for cheesecake in fantasy art, even in D&D, but that doesn't mean I want to see it everywhere and there's a limit to how cakey I think is appropriate for most fantasy games. The key I think is not to look at individual paintings, miniatures, or other depictions but to look at it in the aggregate.

I think things have improved quite a bit over the last forty years. I paint a lot of minatures, and it wasn't that long ago where I had a hard time finding appropriate miniatures for women characters in the D&D games I was running. If you shop at some place like Reaper Miniatures, you'll find a lot of miniatures of women ranging from scantily clad fetish nuns all the way to fully armored and even inbetween. I've got a great dwarf woman miniature wearing plate and showing an excellent decolletage. Practical? Hell no. But the woman I painted it for loved it for her character.

Well, I don't know. I mean I have problem with people raising the issue of the aggregate. But I also wouldn't want to judge one work because of an aggregate. I mean if someone manages to make a very impressive piece of art, I don't think that work should lose points because other people operating in that genre are doing too much beefcake for your liking. We should take each work on its own. Also this is a notable example, because if you just read the framing in the text of the article (particularly the part about it being soft core), and you haven't seen the image, you'd be very surprised by how well constructed and subdued it actually is. And sometimes there is a place for this stuff. Some artists just do that sort of thing well. They mention Caldwell and while his works are revealing they are also good (and for many settings it seemed appropriate). Look at Ravenloft. There is clearly a Hammer Film connection there, and Caldwell art helps to emphasize that (and Ravenloft was never overly sexual in the style of something like Vampire, but it needed some amount of sensuality to capture the gothic themes).

 

[MGibster]

Also the homosocial atmosphere. Focusing in on guys and cracking jokes about women and portraying women in games to be sex objects, victims, or villains for the most part... And the nasty attitudes around tables and at conventions.

As a wee MGibster, we didn't have any girls in our group. We didn't have girls in our group until were were in our early twenties. And even then we didn't have girls because they were women at that point. My particular group didn't include some of the more egregious examples of misogyny I've read about in other groups, but we had our share of bad jokes and we treated NPCs as sex objects and victims more often than we should have. Odds are good if we had a real live girl who actually wanted to play AD&D with us a lot of what we had at the table wouldn't have been there. I don't want to brag, but I was a reasonably good looking beholder in my younger days, and even then I knew you couldn't behave like a pig if you wanted to spend any time around girls. (Now we can discuss the trope of women as a civilizing force.)

Plus the infamous "Unwashed Masses" issue that is historically more likely to drive women away from gaming rather than guys.

I will say this is an area I've seen considerable improvement on in gaming circles. It used to be there was always some smelly guy, possible named Ogre, who would hang out at the hobby shop. This guy was to hygiene as Snarf is to brevity. A few months ago I ran into an Ogre at my local game shop and it was the first time I had seen one in a long, long while. I've also noticed the number of visible butt cracks when down about ten years ago. My wife used to joke with me that she didn't want to go into the game store for fear of witnessing an errant butt crack, but (ha ha), you hardly see them anymore.

 

[Steampunkette]

As a wee MGibster, we didn't have any girls in our group. We didn't have girls in our group until were were in our early twenties. And even then we didn't have girls because they were women at that point. My particular group didn't include some of the more egregious examples of misogyny I've read about in other groups, but we had our share of bad jokes and we treated NPCs as sex objects and victims more often than we should have. Odds are good if we had a real live girl who actually wanted to play AD&D with us a lot of what we had at the table wouldn't have been there. I don't want to brag, but I was a reasonably good looking beholder in my younger days, and even then I knew you couldn't behave like a pig if you wanted to spend any time around girls. (Now we can discuss the trope of women as a civilizing force.)

So, -so-, true, Bestie! I've been at tables where the act cleaned up -fast-. The "Civilizing Force" of women is definitely a thing that -can- exist in a man-dominated space.

And I've, sadly, been at tables where things got -worse- because there was a woman present.

When I came out as trans to my D&D troupe, one of my friends -immediately- asked me if I'd "Ever date a guy like him" while he was driving me to work.

I'd lived in the same apartment with this guy for 6 years or so. We'd talked, at length, of his absolutely abhorrent attitudes toward women. He'd told me about the online girlfriend he had when he was 17 who -finally- got the opportunity to fly down and be with him after a 5 month online relationship. How they'd had sex by candlelight and with roses the first night she was there and then he ended the relationship because she was 'A Slut' for having sex with her boyfriend on their first in-person date. Like she was staying for a week at his place and he KICKED HER OUT the next morning.

Nevermind that he didn't balk at the opportunity to have his way with her. That's -totally- normal dude behavior. But she was a bad person. HE SET UP THE BEDROOM WITH ROSES AND CANDLES. But she's a slut.

I hadn't even talked to a physician or a psychiatrist about being trans or to get on HRT or anything, and here I am having to tell this guy "No" as gently as possible because HE WAS DRIVING THE CAR AT THE TIME.

He got pissed at me for being Friendzoned and refused to drive me to or from work after that. Had to get a lift from a coworker.

Similarly, that attitude carried over into games whenever I'd RP a female character. He doubled down on being an absolute sexist pig at me whenever he got the chance.

I will say this is an area I've seen considerable improvement on in gaming circles. It used to be there was always some smelly guy, possible named Ogre, who would hang out at the hobby shop. This guy was to hygiene as Snarf is to brevity. A few months ago I ran into an Ogre at my local game shop and it was the first time I had seen one in a long, long while. I've also noticed the number of visible butt cracks when down about ten years ago. My wife used to joke with me that she didn't want to go into the game store for fear of witnessing an errant butt crack, but (ha ha), you hardly see them anymore.

Oh, for sure. It's -way- less common, now, than it used to be. There's also a generally stronger push on hygiene in general, these days.

Unrelated note "As Snarf is to Brevity" is now my go-to simile for this forum!

 

[Charlaquin]

Unrelated, but excellent taste in VTubers there!

 

[Clint_L]

Times have changed.

When I was in high school, we didn't imagine that any girls would want anything to do with our impossibly uncool hobby. And we sure as hell didn't play at school; that would not have been safe. Similar to others on this thread, I was in college the first time I played RPGs with women.

But now I run the D&D Club at my school. Our ratio is roughly 50/50, depending on the year, and usually there are a few non-binary students. There is a strong overlap with the Pride Club, and several players have come out first through the game. One of my best DMs was trans and no one batted an eye (she's at college now and running a game there). And although the club is still seen as kinda nerdy, that is nowhere near the stigma it used to be. Being in D&D Club is treated more or less like being in theatre or on a soccer team.

It's better this way. For everyone. Everyone should be able to enjoy RPGs, and feel safe doing so.

 

[Charlaquin]

Well, I don't know. I mean I have problem with people raising the issue of the aggregate. But I also wouldn't want to judge one work because of an aggregate. I mean if someone manages to make a very impressive piece of art, I don't think that work should lose points because other people operating in that genre are doing too much beefcake for your liking. We should take each work on its own. Also this is a notable example, because if you just read the framing in the text of the article (particularly the part about it being soft core), and you haven't seen the image, you'd be very surprised by how well constructed and subdued it actually is. And sometimes there is a place for this stuff. Some artists just do that sort of thing well. They mention Caldwell and while his works are revealing they are also good (and for many settings it seemed appropriate). Look at Ravenloft. There is clearly a Hammer Film connection there, and Caldwell art helps to emphasize that (and Ravenloft was never overly sexual in the style of something like Vampire, but it needed some amount of sensuality to capture the gothic themes).

Nobody is judging this art for the aggregate. This art is fine. I’d even say I quite like it. But, if most of the art of women in D&D books were still of its ilk, that would be extremely off-putting, even if each individual piece was of excellent quality. Nobody is docking points from their assessment of any particular artwork. They’re saying, all the art of women within the hobby being sexualized sure makes it feel uncomfortable to be a women around people who are into the hobby.

 

[Clint_L]

As for scantily clad miniatures: I don't have a problem with them, and neither does my spouse (they're non-binary). I like a scantily clad miniature, TBH; I think they're good, cheesy fun. They're kinda campy. But I think it's a matter of attitude and taste, and I have enough miniatures that everyone can find one that suits them best (or I make them one). That said, I do have some that definitely don't go into school!