D&D (2024) D&D Monster Manual (2025)

[dave2008]

Do we really need yet another thread sidetracked onto new-edition-or-not wars? Can't we just create a separate thread for that if you want to discuss it? I came here to see if there's any updates for things related to the new MM and related like the new Sprite stat block pages ago.

Hey! I have you both the new stone golem and the new sprite. What more do you want?! Seriously though, I can post more if you want. No one really discussed the sprite so I stopped posting them.

 

[dave2008]

Because for decades they were telling a story through the lore. Lore changes do matter to me. Agree to disagree. I don't see the lore of the worlds of D&D as presented from 1e or before to a few years ago (when WotC announced they no longer care about it as anything but an idea mine) as any different conceptually from a franchise like Star Wars or Star Trek. They were telling a story through the lore and then gave up.

Well it is not like Star Wars and Star Trek have never changed their lore!

I also call foul a little bit on your idea that lore before 5e was carefully curated and cared four in some continuum. D&D has changed lore through its editions from 1e on and some of it has been destructive to previous lore. One of my pet peeves with 2e+ is how it changed the 1e lore that was the foundation of my games. I've rolled with over the years about using only the bits and pieces I like (and some I don't). That didn't change with 5e, it just continued a trend. I also think that WotC doesn't care about lore. I actually think the make the changes they make because they do care about the lore. Do the always make the right decisions? I don't think so, but I don't expect anyone to always make the right choices.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Well it is not like Star Wars and Star Trek have never changed their lore!

I also call foul a little bit on your are lore before 5e. D&D has changed lore through its editions from 1e on and some of it has been destructive to previous lore. One of my pet peeves with 2e+ is how it changed the 1e lore that was the foundation of my games. I've rolled with over the years about using only the bits and pieces I like (and some I don't). That didn't change with 5e, it just continued a trend. I also think that WotC doesn't care about lore. I actually think the make the changes they make because they do care about the lore. Do the always make the right decisions? I don't think so, but I don't expect anyone to always make the right choices.

They explicitly said a few years ago that even trying at lore consistency no longer matters to them, so I have to disagree with you there.

As far as the lore changes you mentioned, I'm sure it happened here and there, but can you provide an example of what you mean? The bulk of what I remember was additive, or at least didn't directly invalidate previous lore.

 

[Oofta]

Hey! I have you both the new stone golem and the new sprite. What more do you want?! Seriously though, I can post more if you want. No one really discussed the sprite so I stopped posting them.

Well, heavens forbid we actually talk about something related to the actual topic of the thread. But sure. I like the more compact stat blocks and I thought the sprite was better written. I've just been ignoring this thread for a while because it was just the same argument that's taken over multiple threads now.

 

[Oofta]

Seriously ... I'm not in any way telling anyone what they can or cannot post. But if we create a separate thread for the edition-not-edition conversation would you take your discussion there? If we say please?

 

[dave2008]

Now at @Oofta "request" here are some more 1-1 comparison statblocks from 2014 and 2024 (via Uni and the Hunt for the Lost Horn and Scions of Elemental Evil).

2014

2024

2014

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That is it for the 1-1 comparisons from Uni. There are more unique statblocks in Uni, but I am just comparing apples to apples here. I will be back with the Scion comparisons shortly.

 

[BB Shockwave]

Just because you do not care for a change, or do not understand the reasoning behind the change, it does not mean there is "no reason" or that is it "change for change's sake". That tired old complaint is one of my pet peeves!

I mean, if you don't like that goblins, hobgoblins, and bugbears are now fey instead of humanoids . . . that's cool. Personally, I love it! Whenever the game changes, there will be changes we like and changes we don't.

We have plenty of evil antagonist humanoids, changing goblins to fey brings them more in line with folklore and fantasy literature, and diversifies the cast of D&D creatures. Goblins work better as mischievous dark fey than just another group of humanoids like orcs . . . in my opinion, of course.

And like elves, there is plenty of reasons for goblins to be living both in the feywild and in the material world. Changing goblins to fey opens them up in lore and storytelling potential!

But what if this change messes with my established setting!! So? Easy fix. Keep goblins as humanoids in your campaign. Or tweak the charm person spell to work against humanoid fey under a certain hit die or CR . . . so many simple, easy fixes. And that's what D&D has been about since the 70s . . . taking the established rules and lore and making it your own!

Changing Goblinoids to Fey creatures is not new. I think they already did that in Wild Beyond the Witchlight. Worgs being Fey is new, but I guess 5E never had the "magical beast" category 3E did.
I personally do not like it because with that logic, half the Monster Manual should be fey. Kobolds are also based on german miner tales, and heck, Dragons are from folklore too, they too should be fey? Shouldn't Elves be fey then too?
Honestly, as long as they do not visually redesign them too much, I don't really care, since it will not impact the miniatures being made.
The Bullywug change to fey is the only one I am iffy about, to me a rather savage, swamp-dwelling primitive species who worship Demons using rapiers - the making of which would require advanced blacksmithing techniques - just does not feel like it works. I assume this is again, due to Witchlight, where Bullywugs re-imagined on the Frog courier/runner from Alice in Wonderland are found in the Feywild, but even withing this new system this does not gel with the Bullywug Bog Sage who based on the stat block goes more with the savage demon-worshipping Bullywug image.

I am more curious in seeing the new artwork.

 

[dave2008]

They explicitly said a few years ago that even trying at lore consistency no longer matters to them, so I have to disagree with you there.

I don't think it was quite so explicit. I think you are misremembering here. They said the don't have lore continuity beyond the core books for their partners. They never said the didn't have lore continuity for themselves, IIRC.

As far as the lore changes you mentioned, I'm sure it happened here and there, but can you provide an example of what you mean? The bulk of what I remember was additive, or at least didn't directly invalidate previous lore.

The one that always buggered me the most was blood war and the ascension of Orcus and Asmodeus over Demogorgon. Of course Tiamat's lore as been all over the place too. There are more, but I don't really hold on to specifics. Like I said, I keep what I like and discard or modify what I don't. For example, I complete rejected the blood war for years and detested planescape. However, 4e's twist to the blood war and incorporation of the dawn war gave me ideas on how to embrace it and weave it into my campaigns lore. Similarily, 5e has shined new light on planescape for me and the First World has woven into the Dawn War and reconciled Tiamat (and Bahamut) back closer to her 1e lore and my own concept of "dragon gods."

 

[Oofta]

Now at @Oofta "request" here are some more 1-1 comparison statblocks from 2014 and 2024 (via Uni and the Hunt for the Lost Horn and Scions of Elemental Evil).

2014
View attachment 389210

2024
View attachment 389211

One of the few monsters I've seen that they reduced HP. Also, have they gotten rid of Traits altogether? I don't remember seeing any, looks like they just give a flat bonus to perception now.

2014
View attachment 389212

2024
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I do like that they are just giving casters a default cantrip-like attack and assume they have mage armor up.

2014
View attachment 389214

2024
View attachment 389215

I actually preferred knocking prone, but this is less powerful.

2014
View attachment 389216

2024
View attachment 389217

That is it for the 1-1 comparisons from Uni. There are more unique statblocks in Uni, but I am just comparing apples to apples here. I will be back with the Scion comparisons shortly.

Got rid of trait again, not sure whether it's clearer because now we have to be careful to read the entire attack block text.

 

[dave2008]

OK, here are the comparisons from Scions of Elemental evil.

2014

2024

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That is it folks (this post and my previous post form the Uni statblocks), despite what the previous video posted that is all of the officially release 1-1 comparisons of 2014 to 2024 statblocks. We have also seen previews of the Ancient Green Dragon, Kuo-Toa and Skeletons, but they have not been officially release so I am not including them here.


So @Oofta, what are your thoughts?!