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D&D Monster Manual (2025)

D&D (2024) D&D Monster Manual (2025)

Besides, no one is demanding complicated explanations of how Sigil's factions (and Factols) are back or how we ended up pre Greyhawk Wars and War of the Lance.
To be fair, by the time those came out it had explicitly been stated that 5e canon was going to be treated separately from older editions' canon (as opposed to 5e Forgotten Realms, which included exactly those sorts of explanations in SCAG, or 5e Eberron, which never had a metaplot to reset).
 

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To be fair, by the time those came out it had explicitly been stated that 5e canon was going to be treated separately from older editions' canon (as opposed to 5e Forgotten Realms, which included exactly those sorts of explanations in SCAG, or 5e Eberron, which never had a metaplot to reset).
The trend really started with 4e Dark Sun's reset to Kalak's fall. But I don't blame them. If you're going to do a fresh take on a setting, you might as well to back to the classic era of the setting and incorporate ideas from later products.
 

The trend really started with 4e Dark Sun's reset to Kalak's fall. But I don't blame them. If you're going to do a fresh take on a setting, you might as well to back to the classic era of the setting and incorporate ideas from later products.
I do wish they would do that for all the settings.
 

Some posters keep conflating lore with metaplot. They're not the same, not at all. Metaplot is something like "This world-shaking cataclysm happens to campaign world X! Now everything is different!!1!!" It needn't be that extreme, but it's an event or events that future products assume happened and often build around- see, for instance, the Time of Troubles in the FR, or the Greyhawk Wars.

Lore is just that- background information that expands on a subject in the game. See, for instance, the Ecology of... articles in Dragon Magazine back in the day.

Expanding on existing lore is fine by me. Adding the Blood War to demon lore is a good example of this- it didn't overwrite or contradict anything that came before, it just built on top of it. Sure, back in early 1e, demons were just random CE monsters from the Abyss. The Blood War didn't change that. It just added lore on top of it- there was a cosmic conflict that they were a part of in addition to them being random CE monsters from the Abyss.

Revising lore in a way that overwrites it is something that converges on being metaplot. It changes things in a way that affects home games. That's what I object to. Expand, elaborate, good! Overwrite, retcon, bad.

And of course you can ignore those changes. I am perfectly aware of that. And in some cases it's as easy as saying, "I'm ignoring this creature's Type; it's a Humanoid, not a Fey, in my game." But in other cases, it can be a lot trickier, and it can lead to the DM having to carry both the 2014 and the 2024 MMs to have the versions of the monsters that they want. Honestly, I already sort of feel this way with MMM and the two monster books it replaces; it doesn't actually have all the stat blocks from those books, and while I generally prefer the MMM versions, there are exceptions where the updated version really doesn't do it for me like the older version did.

I don't really want to carry around five monster books to have the contents of two monster books.

Anyway, carry on.
 

Expanding on existing lore is fine by me. Adding the Blood War to demon lore is a good example of this- it didn't overwrite or contradict anything that came before, it just built on top of it. Sure, back in early 1e, demons were just random CE monsters from the Abyss. The Blood War didn't change that. It just added lore on top of it- there was a cosmic conflict that they were a part of in addition to them being random CE monsters from the Abyss.
I disagree, making them part of some cosmic war did fundamentally change what they were previously IMO. That was definitely how I felt when I learned about it
 

Sorry, I thought i had laid it out, let me try again.

-They replace things like keen senses with a bonus to perception in the statblock.

-Dms may not be aware why the perception is higher.

-DMs that would have noticed keen senses don't play the creature as if it had a special ability.

-If the wording in the lore retains a keen senses description, all is well.

-If the wording in the lore doesn't mention any such trait, then it is lost and no longer a part of that creature.

Therefore I hope all these mechanical simplications don't make traits inherent to the creature "disappear"
Do we think most players would really notice this change? I don't. I'm ok if we disagree, but it's hard for me to see how a player playing a PC would really care or nice most of the time.
 

I disagree, making them part of some cosmic war did fundamentally change what they were previously IMO. That was definitely how I felt when I learned about it
That's fair, I guess. Is there anything that came before that the change invalidated, though? Was there an adventure that had something that didn't work or fit anymore?
 


Some posters keep conflating lore with metaplot.​
To expand on this a bit (okay, a lot). If your view of "lore" is that it is primarily the story of the worlds of the D&D cosmology (i.e. metaplot), then there is definitely a thread running from 1e-3e that was broken for 4e and 5e. However, if your view of lore is that it is more the backstories of individual monsters, places and items, then you probably didn't experience quite as much of a disconnect across editions.

The approach to D&D continuity has varied a fair amount across editions.

1st Edition
When the Monster Manual was published there wasn't exactly a lot of existing Basic D&D to be consistent with, but it is worth noting that the B/X and BECMI line of D&D products ran all the way through 1e with no effort made to keep any form of continuity between the lines. Events occurring in one line had no impact on the other, the cosmology and hierarchy of divine beings/immortals was very different. Monsters with the same name had different abilities. The D&D brand was quite happy to have a biversal approach to lore throughout this period with seeming little complaint from customers. Only in the 2e era was the Basic D&D line finally merged into the main D&D line as the world of Mystara.

2nd Edition
This is the edition of the rules that was the most respectful of past lore, typically treating all 1e content as canon, and expanding the cosmology to explain the existence of myriad campaigns worlds, even eventually incorporating Basic D&D/Mystara. In-world reasons were provided for most lore changes resulting from mechanical differences between 1e and 2e. The 2e approach to continuity was additive, avoiding new lore that contradicted existing lore. When 2e did contradict past lore, it was almost always accidentally, and simply because there was so much lore to keep track of.

3rd Edition
This was the first edition that wasn't shy to drop lore that didn't work well mechanically, or which needed streamlining. Overall, 3e tended to be mostly respectful of lore from past core books, fairly respectful to lore from past adventures and supplements and occasionally respectful to lore from D&D magazines and other sources. For 3e, you were less likely to get an in-game reason for changed lore; the approach was typically to pretend that things had simply always been that way. ("Yes, galeb duhr have always had four limbs, why do you ask?") Campaign setting material tended to be compilations, updates and expansions of older sources with a gradual progression of world timelines.

4th Edition
This was the edition by far the least respectful of past lore, entirely by design. Not only did the rules system get a significant overhaul, but the cosmology, origins of the world, and backstories of many creatures were rewritten. This edition took liberties with settings too. The Forgotten Realms had a massive timeline jump and another cataclysmic event. Dark Sun was rebooted back to the beginning of its original timeline. Only Eberron escaped significant change, with 4e keeping the timeline where it was in 3e.

5th Edition
The current version of D&D is respectful of past lore, but ready (sometimes even eager) to ditch anything that gets in the way of modern design goals. 5e draws heavily on all previous editions, but does not further develop the existing timelines of any settings (except vaguely the Forgotten Realms), preferring to reboot (Ravenloft), reset (Planescape, Greyhawk) or selectively reuse (Dragonlance, Spelljammer) settings as seems appropriate to make them accessible to newer D&D players. 5e has probably made the most changes to monster lore within an edition, something which didn't start with the 2024 rules, but goes back to at least Monsters of the Multiverse.


This evolving approach to D&D continuity is complex enough that I have no trouble understanding several seemingly conflicting opinions. I get @Micah Sweet's distress that the story of the D&D cosmology is no longer being told. I understand @the Jester's disdain for mid-edition tweaks to monster classifications. I can also see why many people don't see any problem with how 5e treats D&D's rich history of lore, or at least don't agree that 5e is less respectful of lore than past editions. Those views are shaped by different perspectives of what D&D lore is and how immutable it should be.
 

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