Next year's new Monster Manual will include over 85 new monsters, a sizable increase over what was previously believed. In a D&D Beyond post made to celebrate the year end, Wizards of the Coast confirmed that the 2025 Monster Manual would contain 85 "brand new monsters." Considering that the new Monster Manual includes approximately 500 monsters, it's not a surprise that there are a significant amount of new monster statblocks, but this is further confirmation that nearly 20% of the statblocks will be brand new. A description of the Monster Manual also confirms that there will be over 300 new images in the book.
Many of these new statblocks will be to add either high CR or low CR variants of existing popular monsters, so that they can be used in a wider variety of scenarios. For instance, vampires will have several low CR variants (representing freshly turned vampires) along with a high CR vampire nightbringer. Also present in the game are arch-hags and a blob of annihilation, which are classified as titan-level creatures representing different kinds of monster types.
The new Monster Manual will be released on February 18th, 2025.
Last time you were warned for declaring that people who liked things different to you had a lower IQ. Now you're just calling them names. Clearly you don't catch on quickly. You won't be posting in this thread again, and if you continue to ignore our warnings, you won't post here again, period. I hope that's clear.
Use any of the products specifically designed to work with the more powerful character builds and group combos. You'll be much happier if you do and you won't spend all your time here on the boards bemoaning the fact that WotC didn't give you what you wanted.
Those other products (and I have a lot of them: Tomb of Beasts, Flee Mortals, Monstrous Menagerie, etc.) are not really geared for more powerful PCs. The non-WotC products do tend to have some more interesting design and they do cover some more of the options old WotC products don't, but they don't really address powerful character builds. All those 3PP products are loosely based on the 2014 DMG guidelines or statistical analysis of the 2014 MM (in LevelUp's case). Thus, they use a flawed foundation to build their monsters from.
Let's look at an example (really the only highly level example we can compare between 2014, 2024, and 3PP), the Ancient Green Dragon. Also, because the LevelUp green is CR 24 vs CR 22 for the WotC version I also looked at the LevelUp white which is CR 22.
2014
LevelUp
LevelUp (White)
2024
CR
22
24
22
22
AC
21
21
20
21
HP
385
420
370
402
Attack
+15
+15
+15
+15
DC
22
22
23
22
DPR
151
149-170
140-161
175-193*
The DPR of the 2024 green is potentially low-balled. Without more information about the 2025 monster building guidelines/trends I went conservative. However, going strictly by the most powerful attacks each time you could get a DPR of 293.
Comparing the CR equivalent LevelUp White and WotC Green shows the 2014 green and the LevelUp white are very similar on raw power metrics and the 2024 green is a significant boost, comparable to the LevelUp green which is two levels higher (CR 24 vs 22).
Is this the whole story? No, both the LevelUp dragons and the 2024 green do several other interesting things beyond what the 2014 green does that make them more threatening at the same CR. I still think the LevelUp dragons are slightly bettered designed (just my opinion/preference), but they do appear to be less threatening on an equal CR basis.
So, are there really 3PP products out there that address powerful characters? I don't think so.
Will the 2025 MM monsters address more powerful characters? I am not sure, but it appears they might do a better job than any current 3PP or WotC product.
Personally I don't expect the 2025 MM to solve the issue of powerful character builds vs monsters. I do think the new monsters with the new encounter guide in the 2024 DMG will make encounters significantly more challenging, but CharOp builds will still likely handle these monsters with ease unless you have a very skilled DM. However, against more modest characters or ones with less tatical mastery, I think the 2025 monsters and 2024 encounter guidelines will be a big improvement.
Why would I want that?!? I don't need that. Monsters are already low CR. Vampire spawn ARE the low CR vampire variant. Do you need even weaker vampires? CR 5 is about right IMO for the low CR vampire.
What monster do you need a low CR variant for? I mean, maybe a baby Bullette or something would be fun to throw in, but honestly I'm not expecting much from this concept. We'll see, they might surprise me.
I'll be more interested in the new monsters CR 15 and under.
Also, my post more more in response to the artwork on the cover. I've never realized with had gargantuan Beholders? Must be new.
I definitely agree with this statement; however,...
Those other products (and I have a lot of them: Tomb of Beasts, Flee Mortals, Monstrous Menagerie, etc.) are not really geared for more powerful PCs. The non-WotC products do tend to have some more interesting design and they do cover some more of the options old WotC products don't, but they don't really address powerful character builds. All those 3PP products are loosely based on the 2014 DMG guidelines or statistical analysis of the 2014 MM (in LevelUp's case). Thus, they use a flawed foundation to build their monsters from.
Let's look at an example (really the only highly level example we can compare between 2014, 2024, and 3PP), the Ancient Green Dragon. Also, because the LevelUp green is CR 24 vs CR 22 for the WotC version I also looked at the LevelUp white which is CR 22.
2014
LevelUp
LevelUp (White)
2024
CR
22
24
22
22
AC
21
21
20
21
HP
385
420
370
402
Attack
+15
+15
+15
+15
DC
22
22
23
22
DPR
151
149-170
140-161
175-193*
The DPR of the 2024 green is potentially low-balled. Without more information about the 2025 monster building guidelines/trends I went conservative. However, going strictly by the most powerful attacks each time you could get a DPR of 293.
Comparing the CR equivalent LevelUp White and WotC Green shows the 2014 green and the LevelUp white are very similar on raw power metrics and the 2024 green is a significant boost, comparable to the LevelUp green which is two levels higher (CR 24 vs 22).
Is this the whole story? No, both the LevelUp dragons and the 2024 green do several other interesting things beyond what the 2014 green does that make them more threatening at the same CR. I still think the LevelUp dragons are slightly bettered designed (just my opinion/preference), but they do appear to be less threatening on an equal CR basis.
So, are there really 3PP products out there that address powerful characters? I don't think so.
Will the 2025 MM monsters address more powerful characters? I am not sure, but it appears they might do a better job than any current 3PP or WotC product.
Personally I don't expect the 2025 MM to solve the issue of powerful character builds vs monsters. I do think the new monsters with the new encounter guide in the 2024 DMG will make encounters significantly more challenging, but CharOp builds will still likely handle these monsters with ease unless you have a very skilled DM. However, against more modest characters or ones with less tatical mastery, I think the 2025 monsters and 2024 encounter guidelines will be a big improvement.
I prefer low level games myself, but personally I don't need (or even want) a baby beholder or any such thing. Higher CR creatures are meant to be the toughs, and having too many lower CR variants of different things sort of muddies the water IMO.
A more generic template/formula for modifing creatures to adjust CR would be more useful personally. Like there is a big power difference between the 4 dragon ages, and having a few extra in the mix would help, but a way of adjusting existing creatures would handle even something like that.
Sure that is an option, but it is not like LevelUp is the answer to that issue. I am not familiar with TotV, so I am not sure on that one. Maybe AiME or the recent revised version?
Whatever system / variant you choose, I still think you need to make choices to nerf or disallow things if you really want to reduced PC power and I am 100% OK with that too.
Sure that is an option, but it is not like LevelUp is the answer to that issue. I am not familiar with TotV, so I am not sure on that one. Maybe AiME or the recent revised version?
Whatever system / variant you choose, I still think you need to make choices to nerf or disallow things if you really want to reduced PC power and I am 100% OK with that too.
I play games in the OSR as well. Much easier to limit PC power. That being said, there are plenty of limits in the spells of Level Up, for example, that help with these issues IMO.
I play games in the OSR as well. Much easier to limit PC power. That being said, there are plenty of limits in the spells of Level Up, for example, that help with these issues IMO.
This was a 5e thread so I assumed we where discussing 5e.
Level up does have some limits on spells (which I appreciate, but it also offers routes to less limited versions too IIRC), but gives a lot more options and complexity in general. IME, complexity doesn't make PCs less powerful. That beings said, I agree with Morrus that LevelUp characters / game are basically on par with 2014/2024 WotC 5e. So from my standpoint, that really isn't a meaningful difference in PC power between the two 5e variants.
For me, limiting PC power is a DM/Player discussion that is handled in session 0. Much easier us to set the ground rules for a game we know than take time to adjust to a new system.
At the time, I got it because I have a bit of thing of collecting books on Monsters. 
