D&D 5E What high-level spells could warp society?

[ezo]

The population density will matter quite a bit here, I'm thinking. VIllages are only going to generally have a few Tier 2s, and rarely a Tier 3. You'll see higher levels more in more densely populated towns and smaller cities.

So, a village guard might be only 3-4th level but a city guard might be twice that?

 

[Reynard]

At the very least, we're looking at something akin to a fantasy version of a Star Trek like post-scarcity society.

Assuming we are still talking about 5E, I don't think 5E magic is "big" enough for that. You can cure disease, yes, but only a few people a day if you do nothing else. Which means you can't combat hunger or thirst. Magic is just too immediate and small in 5E for there to be a massively different form of society.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Assuming we are still talking about 5E, I don't think 5E magic is "big" enough for that. You can cure disease, yes, but only a few people a day if you do nothing else. Which means you can't combat hunger or thirst. Magic is just too immediate and small in 5E for there to be a massively different form of society.

To me it simply makes no setting logic sense for magic to be so exclusively adventure focused as WotC 5e makes it. It would expand, and in the proposed setting it would expand a lot.

Consider this: a big reason why certain effects are level-gated the way there are is because of their intended use: by adventurers against power-appropriate enemies in power-appropriate environments during a relatively short exploration or even shorter skirmish situation. There are many, many effects magic could provide that, by that metric, would be considerably lower level than the tier-4 stuff we've been discussing, because it isn't helpful in an adventuring situation.

I don't think you can keep that door closed without up-ending the entire 5e magic system.

 

[Reynard]

To me it simply makes no setting logic sense for magic to be so exclusively adventure focused as WotC 5e makes it. It would expand, and in the proposed setting it would expand a lot.

Consider this: a big reason why certain effects are level-gated the way there are is because of their intended use: by adventurers against power-appropriate enemies in power-appropriate environments during a relatively short exploration or even shorter skirmish situation. There are many, many effects magic could provide that, by that metric, would be considerably lower level than the tier-4 stuff we've been discussing, because it isn't helpful in an adventuring situation.

I don't think you can keep that door closed without up-ending the entire 5e magic system.

I don't think you can blame 5E here. it isn't like AD&D had a ton of non-adventuring magic in the PHB. That all came later, in Dragon and random supplements as TSR floundered for stuff to print.

 

[kigmatzomat]

If they worked by the game rules, we still don't know how many of them can actually become spellcasters. The rules do not cover how people in the world without class levels get them. 1st level is a fait accompli for PCs, and GM fiat for anyone else.

I will point out that is a matter of editions and game systems. 3E and 3.5E DMG had default demographics that provided norms what percentage of a populace was of each class and level. You can ignore those values, but they are the norm for "vanilla" 3E settings. Eberron is the non-enforced medieval implementation of the 3e mechanics.

Earthdawn has something similar, although in that setting everyone has some magic, but the majority only get "half-magic", which is much more focused and limited. It was the original "Eberron".

 

[Micah Sweet]

I don't think you can blame 5E here. it isn't like AD&D had a ton of non-adventuring magic in the PHB. That all came later, in Dragon and random supplements as TSR floundered for stuff to print.

But it did come, eventually. I have a four volume Wizards Spell Compendium to prove it. 5e has had plenty of time to do the same, but they haven't even really attempted it.

 

[kigmatzomat]

I'm wondering, if a fair number of people have consistent access to 9th level magic, what sort of implications would that have for how "adventurer society" acts?

I'd start with thinking about cantrips and low level spells on the base society. Given that 5.5e makes staves with cantrips very cheap, these will be owned by communities, whether that is the form of nobility, council of elders or elected officials. The wealthy will have their own golf bag of cantrip staves.

Mold Earth is as effective as a 200hp excavator, able to move 6 tons of dirt, doing the work of a hundred laborers. Shape Water is like a powerful water pump, able to lift 10,000 gallons of water 15ft in a minute. Control Flames is a modern fire extinguisher. Create Bonfire can heat an oven or forge with no fuel. Mending can repair all kinds of things, like tools and furniture up to and including wagon wheels and ships, assuming the boards are each less than 12" wide. Guidance can assist artisans, scholars, and performers.

Low level ritual spells can be cast without concern of spell slots. Unseen Servant can let one caster do the work of six grandmothers/children. Weeding, picking fruits & vegetables, collecting destructive insects, picking stones from fields, etc. A Floating Disk is a pony cart you never have to feed or worry about tearing up the floors. Purify Food and Drink can make hundreds of pound of food and thousands of pounds of water safe to consume.

Animal Messenger can send messages 50 miles for essentially no cost. Magic Mouths can be used to disseminate information in public places. Skywrite can disseminate information to entire cities. Augury helps people make fewer bad decisions.

Waterbreathing changes ship repair, construction, and even allows mining in flooded caverns. Water Walking can make boats or ferries irrelevant or result in a horse-drawn boat. Phantom Steeds provide a version of the pony express that would kill horses.

Using spell slots, Goodberry can feed/heal 10 people. Continual Flame is worth it for mines, anyone underground any long lived race, places that needs lamps for hours every night, and places that are fire-prone like ships. (The cost of light has historically been a huge factor on economies)

Plant Growth only needs to be cast once per year to double to production of 500 acres. A priest working 5 days a week, 45 weeks a year can make
112,500 be twice as productive.

Wall of Stone, Stone Shape, and Transmute Rock+Move Earth would result in fantastic architecture and incredibly cheap bridges and defensive structures.

 

[kigmatzomat]

Assuming we are still talking about 5E, I don't think 5E magic is "big" enough for that. You can cure disease, yes, but only a few people a day if you do nothing else. Which means you can't combat hunger or thirst. Magic is just too immediate and small in 5E for there to be a massively different form of society.

Depends on those high-level casters.

Mass Heal can cure 700 people of diseases/poisons/blindness/deafness by giving each 1hp. (5.5 has no diseases any more, just poisoned). In a week a caster could cure ~5,000 people with that one spell. They would have their 1st-8th level spells to provide food and water.

Paladins can cure (level) people/day with Lay on Hands. Their aura can let people recover naturally (via boosted saves) plus they have a handful of spell slots.

 

[Reynard]

Depends on those high-level casters.

Mass Heal can cure 700 people of diseases/poisons/blindness/deafness by giving each 1hp. (5.5 has no diseases any more, just poisoned). In a week a caster could cure ~5,000 people with that one spell. They would have their 1st-8th level spells to provide food and water.

Paladins can cure (level) people/day with Lay on Hands. Their aura can let people recover naturally (via boosted saves) plus they have a handful of spell slots.

And you think that's enough to develop a post scarcity society?

 

[CreamCloud0]

And you think that's enough to develop a post scarcity society?

i mean, look at their previous post before that one, it might take a little bit to get off the ground i think yeah, after the few years it takes to get the ball rolling on some of those 'permanent if cast for a year' spells and the initial chunking your way through the masses with illnesses...yes, yes you could snowball that into a post scarcity society pretty well.