D&D (2024) D&D Monster Manual (2025)

[MonsterEnvy]

High magic, low lethality super-heroic fantasy.

It's not anymore than 5e was 10 years ago.

 

[Remathilis]

Complete freedom without oversight by the money people? No, not unless the creatives and the money people are the same.

Then the only real creative projects are the ones given away freely, because once funding enters the picture, you become beholden to what the market will allow. Morrus might not have the same fiduciary obligations as WotC, but he's still not putting out "Level Ups Guide to Slavery for Fun and Profit" because such a product would kill his brand and financial viability. No matter how "creative" it is, he is bound by what the market will allow him to sell.

Ergo, there is no difference as long as there is a profit motive of any kind.

 

[mamba]

I find this argument interesting when most (all) 3pp haven't actually created their own system

isn't that the definition of a 3pp? If they had their own system, then they would be a 1pp, just a smaller one...

As to how many people work for 5e and spin-offs vs everything else, I assume 5e is a relatively small part of the creatives out there, most of which admittedly cannot do this as a full time job

 

[Imaro]

isn't that the definition of a 3pp? If they had their own system, then they would be a 1pp, just a smaller one...

I didnt claim otherwise... And your point here is??

As to how many people work for 5e and spin-offs vs everything else, I assume 5e is a relatively small part of the creatives out there, most of which admittedly cannot do this as a full time job

Uhm... we were talking about WotC and 3pp specifically... so again I'm not sure what your point is...

 

[Micah Sweet]

It's not anymore than 5e was 10 years ago.

My point is that it much more obviously that now. They have said so in a way they didn't 10 years ago, back when they cared about players who might not want that style of play (which coincidentally was before 5e became insanely popular). Huh.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Then the only real creative projects are the ones given away freely, because once funding enters the picture, you become beholden to what the market will allow. Morrus might not have the same fiduciary obligations as WotC, but he's still not putting out "Level Ups Guide to Slavery for Fun and Profit" because such a product would kill his brand and financial viability. No matter how "creative" it is, he is bound by what the market will allow him to sell.

Ergo, there is no difference as long as there is a profit motive of any kind.

I suspect Morris doesn't want to put out such a product for more important reasons to him that financial viability. Try an example that's a little more reasonable.

When you're running a business, profit always matters. But who decides how to spend the money and what they want matters more.

 

[Remathilis]

I suspect Morris doesn't want to put out such a product for more important reasons to him that financial viability. Try an example that's a little more reasonable.

When you're running a business, profit always matters. But who decides how to spend the money and what they want matters more.

Hyperbole here is to quash the argument about whether a hypothetical problematic product would actually be problematic. Yes Morrus would never create such a product, but replace with any product you feel would create a backlash and the result is the same.

But the point remains the same: you can't have true freedom as long as there are financial concerns. Paizo felt a backlash about slavery in Absalom and opted to limit its freedom to save its profit margin. There is no difference between what Paizo did and what WotC did. Only a matter of scale. So if you're going to argue WotC has limited creativity in order to chase profits, then so has Paizo and Kobold Press and every other game company. Except maybe those independent designers who throw their handmade games on the Web for free. Those are the only fully creative game designers in the industry.

Is that the criteria you want to measure creativity by?

 

[mamba]

So I'm curious what do you think of a company like Kobold Press... who have none of those same pressures and yet for all intents and purposes published a slightly tweaked copy of D&D 5e... what do you think of their creativity? Are they just making the game they want... and if so why is it so hard to believe WotC designers are doing the same?

they made the game they needed to make when the OGL debacle happened, it's their insurance policy for when WotC throws another crazy fit

 

[mamba]

I didnt claim otherwise... And your point here is??

that your question makes no sense if that is your understanding of a 3pp. It is begging the question

 

[Imaro]

that your question makes no sense if that is your understanding of a 3pp. It is begging the question

What was my question? Better yet what was the claim that I was questioning...