D&D (2024) Tiamat Unleashed

[RoughCoronet0]

I'm not entirely clear how characters are supposed to fight this thing when it deals enough damage to level a raging 20th level Barbarian in a single round.

I'd imagine this isn't a creature you are meant to fight in a conventional campaign. She is a god after all.

If I was to use this Tiamat a good chunk of the campaign, especially the higher level sections, world be centered around collecting powerful boons, divine allies, and artifacts that could help the party's chances of fighting her on a more level playing field.

 

[Just Passing Through]

FYI, I noticed you edited your responses for some reason. Just an FYI, as I had quoted them, they are still in the thread. I don't know why you removed them, but if you want me to remove them from my posts I can.

Nope, you are good.

 

[SkidAce]

Primordial Tiamat is for immortal PCs. When I publish the final I will replace these stat blocks that will be a preview of my Immortal Rules (though that will need to be changed after @Upper_Krust finally releases his God Rules).

I've waited so many many years..../sob

 

[Stalker0]

Thanks!

First caveat: I am replacing the Tiamat stat blocks to be previews of my Immortal Rules stat blocks. So they will undergo quite a change. I will keep her a monster of parts though.

Interesting, I must have an old copy up there. That is not what Chromatic Charge or Chromatic Recharge does and they don't list the white head either?! Here is what the red head says:

View attachment 392474


EDIT: I just checked and this is what is in the OP link as well. Can you clarify what you are talking about as your comments don't seem to match the abilities as listed. Perhaps you have an older copy?

So if you read the traits area for Chromatic Recharge. "any negative conditions or effects it is suffering end, and the white head can use its chromatic actions. (similar for other heads, they mention white here).

In terms of the table, I was referring to the Chromatic Actions area, that says once Chromatic Recharge is enabled, you need to roll a d6 on this table every round, etc etc. Here's an example from the draft.

 

[dave2008]

So if you read the traits area for Chromatic Recharge. "any negative conditions or effects it is suffering end, and the white head can use its chromatic actions. (similar for other heads, they mention white here).

In terms of the table, I was referring to the Chromatic Actions area, that says once Chromatic Recharge is enabled, you need to roll a d6 on this table every round, etc etc. Here's an example from the draft.

View attachment 392663

thank you so much for the clarification, very helpful! I do see your point about the Chromatic Actions. Not a bid deal if it was just one head, but when your doing it for 5 heads that can become cumbersome.

However, these Primordial Tiamat stat blocks are going to be replaced with a WIP / preview immortal stat block. Not sure that it will even still have chromatic actions at all!

 

[Upper_Krust]

If you are talking about primordial Tiamat, they are supposed to be quickly and horribly defeated if they are only 20th level PCs. However, there are lots of stat blocks, including Tiamat's avatars, that are appropriate for mortal PCs

I think because core D&D peaks at Level 20, the consensus among most people is that all monsters designed should be beatable by Level 20 characters. However, when we start to consider Hero-deities, Quasi-deities, Demigods and so forth as potential Player Characters we need monstrous threats for such characters.

Personally it doesn't sit well with me that a random party of Level 20 characters can just go and kill Orcus or Tiamat (if they so choose). It just doesn't make sense to me from either a lore perspective or a game mechanical perspective.

Primordial Tiamat is for immortal PCs. When I publish the final I will replace these stat blocks that will be a preview of my Immortal Rules (though that will need to be changed after @Upper_Krust finally releases his God Rules).

I cannot speak for Dave's version of Tiamat, I'd probably have 'Primordial' Tiamat around CR 40 (or maybe 44). Which would be approx. 200 Hit Dice. With a few exceptions (such as monsters so big the PC's can adventure inside them) I don't advocate PC's fighting anything that is CR 12 higher than any given PC itself (an Epic Tier PC averages CR 12; though going 'nova' spikes that figure for a round or two). Higher than a +12 CR difference and the regular attacks start to one-shot characters which is not ideal (though for immortal PCs that's not the end of the battle - though I'll save such details for the book)

So Primordial Tiamat at CR 40, is something for Lesser Gods to fight
Tiamat's Avatar at CR 32 is something for Quasi-deities to fight
Tiamat's Aspects/Consorts at around CR 24 is something for Epic Tier characters to fight

 

[Stalker0]

I think because core D&D peaks at Level 20, the consensus among most people is that all monsters designed should be beatable by Level 20 characters. However, when we start to consider Hero-deities, Quasi-deities, Demigods and so forth as potential Player Characters we need monstrous threats for such characters.

Its been an ongoing debate since the original Gods got their own statblocks. The idea in dnd often is "if it has a statblock, I can kill it", and so there are those that want gods to be nebulous forces with no stats that simply does what they will...and can't really be defeated. And there are those that say gods should be ultra powerful but should still have a block and if pcs find a way to kill them....then kill them they shall.

Dave with his immortals handbook concept has leaned strongly in the 2nd camp, coding the deities and supreme forces of the dnd multiverse. And so they get statblocks. Are they statblocks that a standard 20th level party will be able to defeat?.... ideally HELL NO. If Tiamat could be taken out by any 20th level team in the entire multiverse I mean what is the point in having ultra primordials and gods?

But if a 20th level team got their hands on several key artifacts, made deals with tons of tiamats enemies that will engage her forces at the same time, learning a key weakness of Tiamat they can exploit, etc etc....then ok they can go and make a stab at it.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Its been an ongoing debate since the original Gods got their own statblocks. The idea in dnd often is "if it has a statblock, I can kill it", and so there are those that want gods to be nebulous forces with no stats that simply does what they will...and can't really be defeated. And there are those that say gods should be ultra powerful but should still have a block and if pcs find a way to kill them....then kill them they shall.

Well the problem I have with people who say the Gods should be nebulous forces with no stats is that those people have no interest in epic tier play where battling the Gods makes for fun adventures.

Likewise if you are going to go to the trouble of making the stats then they need to have some degree of interactibility (if that's even a word).

Dave with his immortals handbook concept has leaned strongly in the 2nd camp, coding the deities and supreme forces of the dnd multiverse. And so they get statblocks. Are they statblocks that a standard 20th level party will be able to defeat?.... ideally HELL NO. If Tiamat could be taken out by any 20th level team in the entire multiverse I mean what is the point in having ultra primordials and gods?

But that wholly depends on the "rank" of the deity in question.

For instance the Tarrasque at CR 30 is not a monster for 1st level characters to be facing.

Just as monsters have CR's so too would deities (if we assign them stats). So epic characters might take on a Demigod or two, but they don't contend with AO himself until they have maybe risen several ranks in divinity themselves.

But if a 20th level team got their hands on several key artifacts, made deals with tons of tiamats enemies that will engage her forces at the same time, learning a key weakness of Tiamat they can exploit, etc etc....then ok they can go and make a stab at it.

On paper, yes. But in Practice you don't want to mess with monsters whose every attack will one shot your character.

 

[dave2008]

I cannot speak for Dave's version of Tiamat, I'd probably have 'Primordial' Tiamat around CR 40 (or maybe 44). Which would be approx. 200 Hit Dice. With a few exceptions (such as monsters so big the PC's can adventure inside them) I don't advocate PC's fighting anything that is CR 12 higher than any given PC itself (an Epic Tier PC averages CR 12; though going 'nova' spikes that figure for a round or two). Higher than a +12 CR difference and the regular attacks start to one-shot characters which is not ideal (though for immortal PCs that's not the end of the battle - though I'll save such details for the book)

So Primordial Tiamat at CR 40, is something for Lesser Gods to fight
Tiamat's Avatar at CR 32 is something for Quasi-deities to fight
Tiamat's Aspects/Consorts at around CR 24 is something for Epic Tier characters to fight

I believe I have my primordial Tiamat at the over-deity level. Which for me was like 55-60 IIRC.

 

[AnotherGuy]

What is the ETA of this?
My party is likely going to face Tiamat in the Well of Dragons mid-end of 2025.