D&D (2024) Testing against the Gold Dragon

[MonsterEnvy]

Using another Tactical Shift Loonas final arrives in the fight, and starts cutting up the Dragon, a large host of effects like Vex, Slow and Sap go on the Dragon, and the one miss he makes is turned into a hit thanks to the Epic Boon of Combat Prowess. Due to the Slasher Feat the Dragon has also lost 20 speed for a turn and has Disadvantage on all attack rolls.

Luca is brought back on the Dragon's turn his unconcoius body placed in the middle of the Blade Barrier and Storm for auto 2 failures on Death Saves. On it's turn the Dragon decides to back off, but is forced to take damage from the Storm, it decides to attack Belamur on the way out, even with disadvantage it hits twice. Because of the reduced speed it can't leave the storm entirely, but it can't take the damage twice.

Ellidria peeks out and casts Mordenkainen's Sword to avoid killing her ally, but it fails to hit the Dragon on the first round. She rounds the corner again to get out the Dragon's sightline. The Dragon decides to banish the exposed Belamur both to get rid of the Blade Barrier, and to prevent him from healing people (which he was going to do). The Dragon takes another LA at the end of Belamur's fake turn to Pounce on Luca and finish him off to end Round 4.

 

[ezo]

Not remotely luck. Just math.

Give me your full character sheet and I'll tell you why you're probably wrong. I can't check your numbers because I don't know them.

Let's put them toe to toe.

Why would the dragon ever do that?? It would be flying, and there's not much you can do when it is 100 feet in the air (I would think... again, I don't have your character sheet...).

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Well, I suppose that I might have meant "drop to zero" - but I stand by the other, too. At least dying makes it feel like the monster is dangerous, not that my character is useless.

Recently fought against a demon that used fear and charm with about 80% hit rate using it as a legendary action and as an aura. That was the epitome of an unfun encounter.

My attitude there also stems from trauma from a 4e fight thst lasted 20 rounds wherein I was stunned, but otherwise unharmed for 18 of them (and missed my two attacks in the 2 rounds I got to pkay). I will never go back to that horror!

Yes. In older editions it was quite standard. Ghoul hit you: out for minutes.

In 39 years 9f gamingvI have only - once - had a character come back to life. And that was two years later for a sequel campaign where the mystery of how he came back was a major plot point. And it was only because everyone missed him, not just me.

I can make new characters. I like monsters to be dangerous, not just toy with me. At least I'd get to RP a dramatic death instead of RPing the frustration of getting tossed aside whole my friends fight. Or worse, the blank RP of being stunned.

I think at least the old lair actions could not be used twice in a row. And I think banish should at least make you immune to being targeted for one round after coming back.

Probably in a normal game, your characters prepare for banishment shenenigans. With paladin aura and indomitable and just plain bless, characters might have a good chance not to be banished all the time.

Lets see: paladin probably has +14 to +16 charisma saving throw naturally.

With that +4 to all saves from paladin, the fighter won't be taken out for sure from level 19 and above. So forst round, try to remove paladin. Next round, try again or remove fighter. And even then it is not a given that the dragon succeeds.

 

[MonsterEnvy]

Not remotely luck. Just math. The monk is a sure bet. It isn't close.

Let's put them toe to toe. Dragon: AC 22, HP 546, 4 attacks doing 28 damage each (assuming an extra attack for its legendary action. Monk: AC 27 (unarmored defence + bracers and ring), HP 183, 5 attacks doing 18 damage each (1d12+1d6+8).

Assume Monk attacks first because higher initiative bonus and much higher speed (though you can assume the opposite if you want; then the monk takes a bit more damage on the first round but still wins easily). Monk is taking half damage from all attacks that hit due to superior defence (they don't really need to use it, but why not?).

The dragon is poisoned for the entire encounter, because hand of harm (unless you're immune to the poisoned condition, you're poisoned. There is no save). So the dragon only has a 30.25% chance to hit with any attack (.55x.55), or 1.21 hits per round. Monk can deflect one attack for up to 32.5 damage each round, and may as well spend a focus point to hit back for 11 damage (20x.55, given the dragon's +9 dex save). Also, the dragon only has a 0.25% chance of a critical on any attack, so critical hits from it are not really worth considering. So in melee, the ancient gold dragon only manages to damage the monk once every 5 rounds on average, for 14 HP. Or an average of 3 damage per round (these are averages; in actuality it's a bit swingier than this but the monk is really in zero danger).

The monk is pretty much immune to the dragon's breath weapon, between having a +14 to dex saves, a re-roll if needed because disciplined survivor, and evasion. WORST case scenario is the monk takes 15 damage which...whatever - one hand of healing more than fixes it. Note that the monk is proficient in ALL saves, with a re-roll if needed, so spells in general are not a great option for the dragon.

Long story short, the dragon can barely damage the monk. In fact, if they want to spend a bit longer on the encounter, the monk can finish at full health by tossing a hand of healing on themselves as desired, but they don't need to bother. They're in no danger unless they run out of focus points.

How much damage is the monk doing? Note that all I've assumed the monk has for an upgrade is the eldritch claw tattoo (+1 hit/damage, and once per day can activate to add a d6 extra damage to attacks with up 15' range, which the monk is using). My monk got this at level 7; it's an uncommon magic item. Realistically, a level 20 monk will also have +2 or +3 wraps, but, eh, doesn't need 'em. I've intentionally given the monk minimal upgrades. So the monk is +14 to hit (+6 proficiency+7 dex+1 tattoo), with 5 attacks from the attack action + flurry of blows (one of which will be hand of harm). We would expect a .65 hit rate, but we'll reduce it to .6 for ease. Epic boon is combat prowess, so that turns one miss into a hit. Long story short: monk hits an average of 4 times/round for 72 HP, rounded up to 75 to account for the occasional critical hit.

So between that offence + a bit of damage from defect attacks, the monk should kill the dragon in seven rounds pretty easily, while taking almost no damage.

The dragon's best bet is to fly away. It needs to fly up, because the monk is actually faster than it. If I'm the dragon, I cast banishment until I get lucky and use the opportunity to escape.

Hand of harm makes a level 20 Mercy Monk absolutely lethal to anything that isn't immune to poison, and all monks have ridiculous survivability at that level.

Why would the Monk go first? The Dragon has +16 to it's Initiative. The Dragon has 80 Fly and 15 foot reach on it's attacks, so even if Fire Breath is ineffective, it can just fly by while making it's attacks while the monk can't reach it to attack and poison it, also the Dragon has Weakening Breath even with Prof in Strength Saves and the reroll I doubt the monk is making that save most of the time, which will cut it's damage by a bit.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

Why would the dragon ever do that?? It would be flying, and there's not much you can do when it is 100 feet in the air (I would think... again, I don't have your character sheet...).

I rather feel that is an ancient dragons that is at least size of a bus cannot deal with one 20th level character in melee then things are seriously messed up.

One thing I've noticed about high level foes is that they have pretty pathetic ACs. Monster AC basically caps at 22, which really is not a lot at the endgame.

 

[FitzTheRuke]

So, you'd rather the DM take it easy on the players?

When did I say that? I think you'll find that I said "I'd rather they kill them".

Do players not get to use Banishment on their enemies, either?

I can't say I like it much either way, but I mind less if players banish enemies (except maybe particularly important BBEGs, which I think would likely make a battle less interesting, rather than more) but generally? There's more enemies to be had, so - it's less of a deal.

Being knocked out, or stunned, or banished, or whatever so as a player you have to just sit by and watch (for a little while) is eventually part of the game for everyone--even the DM. Through bad saves I once had a sub-boss "taken out" of a fight in round 1 and watched helplessly as the PCs pounded the crap out if it over five rounds---it never even got to act once--before they killed it.

Yeah, and it's not a great part of the game. It's also pretty easy to avoid - and would be even easier if it's designed differently.

It will come as no surprise that I like that Empyrean's choice of Stun or Damage.

It sucks, sure, but so does rolling badly and just missing all the time for five rounds, and such things happen more often IME.

That does suck, but it sucks while feeling like you're actually playing. I don't mind not-succeeding. As you'll see above - I don't mind dying. It's not about "winning".

I would certainly hope not!

If your PC is constantly targeted by such an effect there is a reason for it. Either you are the easiest to affect with it, making it practically a 100% safe option all the time (hopefully no metagaming on the DM here---which unfortunately I've see too much of), or you are the greatest threat in the enemies estimation and removing you from the fight is the enemy's best hope.

I understand it sucks when it happens (I often allow players whose prospects for rejoining look bleak to roll and even play for the enemy side!), but this is supposed to be a social activity for the whole group, and walking out like that would generate a serious discussion in the group whether or not to let you return. Acts like that ruin everyones' fun... not just yours.

There was quite a bit of hyperbole up there - I meant that I would FEEL like doing that, not that I would do it.

 

[ezo]

I rather feel that is an ancient dragons that is at least size of a bus cannot deal with one 20th level character in melee then things are seriously messed up.

Well, power creep and OP changes in 2024... what do you expect? Even @Clint_L (who initially loved the monk changes) says they are sort of too much now IIRC.

One thing I've noticed about high level foes is that they have pretty pathetic ACs. Monster AC basically caps at 22, which really is not a lot at the endgame.

That's because they are supposed to be just big bags of HP.

Look at something like this dragon, it has what? like half a dozen features? Compare that to a 20th level PC who is rocking 30 or more often enough...

 

[Reynard]

Yeah, I likely would never use the Banishment on the same character twice in a row, unless they made themselves the only possible target. Just because you CAN do something, does not mean you should.

I play monsters wanting to win and willing to do whatever it takes. If it were me, that dragon would be bringing the banished heroes back over a chasm or pit of lava.

Now, that isn't to say the DC on that banishment might not be overtuned. It may be. We don't have the MM yet to know.

 

[Horwath]

My version of this story was in a 3E game where a PC was paralyzed near the end of a session during a big battle with one of the campaign’s main villains. He was paralyzed for the entire next (6 hour) session and then finally was released early in the session after. I think that whole battle was like 56 rounds (it was kinda crazy).

Thankfully, the player had NPCs they could run and was very invested in the group’s actions and successes, so remained engaged and was not at all upset when I apologized for the circumstances.

But I get the frustration

similar, but not the 56 rounds fight.

still lasted more than 2hrs IRL.

3.5e, 3rd level party
1st round, enemy caster wins initiative, casts Cause fear on a friends character, 4 is rolled on d4 for duration, character runs from fight at full speed for 4 rounds, then runs back for 4 round, battle over by the time he returned.

more than 2 hrs wasted on rolling and failing one saving throw.

after fight, all 4 of us players looked at the DM and said: NEVER do that again.
that is a spell for NPCs, not PCs.

and I agree with @FitzTheRuke , it's better to get insta killed on round 1. then you can spend next 2 hrs designing your next character. That is fun to do.

well, friend did play Starcraft while he was running and being useless in-game.

 

[ezo]

When did I say that? I think you'll find that I said "I'd rather they kill them".

You didn't. I was asking you.

My style is not "the PCs are meant to win", and I don't play with other DMs who do feel that way. I know as DM I can certainly kill off any PC I want--that isn't the point. Challenge and fun is the key, not just handing them a story IMO.

I can't say I like it much either way, but I mind less if players banish enemies (except maybe particularly important BBEGs, which I think would likely make a battle less interesting, rather than more) but generally? There's more enemies to be had, so - it's less of a deal.

Yeah, and it's not a great part of the game. It's also pretty easy to avoid - and would be even easier if it's designed differently.

It will come as no surprise that I like that Empyrean's choice of Stun or Damage.

Fair enough. I don't like Banish spells either. When I used it against players, they got upset, so I told them: Either I can use it against you or we can remove it from the game. It was removed.

That does suck, but it sucks while feeling like you're actually playing. I don't mind not-succeeding. As you'll see above - I don't mind dying. It's not about "winning".

I agree (I don't think I said you thought it was about winning at all--but there are multiple conversations happening...).

But it happens. Missing all the time, feeling ineffective in an encounter, having your PC watch from the ground while the rest do battle in the air or underwater---all these things happen at one point or another.

Luckily, such things are not common.

There was quite a bit of hyperbole up there - I meant that I would FEEL like doing that, not that I would do it.

Well, you feel that way, fine, but you also wrote:

I might just leave the table.

"Have fun playing, gang! I have better things to do with my time!"

You seemed to feel strongly about it, so how do I know you if you would actually get up and leave?

I only know you from the boards here, so not well, but you seem decent and I'd be surprised if you did leave, but people have walked out on games before and you wouldn't be the first do leave when upset later to regret it.