D&D (2024) Testing against the Gold Dragon

I play monsters wanting to win and willing to do whatever it takes. If it were me, that dragon would be bringing the banished heroes back over a chasm or pit of lava.
I'd probably enjoy that more. It might feel unfair, but in a "you get what you get for thinking you can take on an ancient dragon"-way, not in a "have fun watching other's play, sucker!"-way. Even if the results are ultimately the same.


Now, that isn't to say the DC on that banishment might not be overtuned. It may be. We don't have the MM yet to know.
But, we DO have the Gold Dragon statblock. Barring surprising last-minute changes, we know that the DC is 24.
 

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You didn't. I was asking you. ;)

My style is not "the PCs are meant to win", and I don't play with other DMs who do feel that way. I know as DM I can certainly kill off any PC I want--that isn't the point. Challenge and fun is the key, not just handing them a story IMO.
Right. And nothing I said ever suggested otherwise.

I would like a real challenge. I think you'll find that in the many examples on this thread of boring shut-down effects, one of the issues is that they shut you down, but rarely make the encounter particularly more challenging. You win in the end, sometimes easily. You just waste a lot of time doing it.

I'd rather the challenge was upped without the frustrating parts.

Fair enough. I don't like Banish spells either. When I used it against players, they got upset, so I told them: Either I can use it against you or we can remove it from the game. It was removed. :)
I mean, that's a solution, sure. I generally don't mind the characters having features that monsters lack. YMMV of course, but I think that monsters can be equally formidable without having to use the same abilities. For example, think of the size difference! As @dave2008 and others have said - this dragon should be much more dangerous than it is simply because of how big it is. It's great that it also knows magic, but it should also swat PCs like they are fleas.

I agree (I don't think I said you thought it was about winning at all--but there are multiple conversations happening...).

But it happens. Missing all the time, feeling ineffective in an encounter, having your PC watch from the ground while the rest do battle in the air or underwater---all these things happen at one point or another.
Sure, and they shouldn't be added to with purposefully designed shut-down mechanics. You can get bored enough with a few bad rolls, or with slow other players taking long turns. You don't ALSO need to have your turn taken away.

Luckily, such things are not common.
Yup. Thankfully.

Well, you feel that way, fine, but you also wrote:
Yes, I meant to illustrate how it would make me feel not what I would actually do. I know how to "play nice with others" - it's what I consider the #1 rule. I was half-joking. I understand why that might not have come across. I often joke about "flipping the table" IRL - but it's not something that I'd actually DO!

You seemed to feel strongly about it, so how do I know you if you would actually get up and leave?
You'll have to take my word for it, I guess.

I only know you from the boards here, so not well, but you seem decent and I'd be surprised if you did leave, but people have walked out on games before and you wouldn't be the first do leave when upset later to regret it.
Yeah, I've seen it happen. I've thrown people out, too. I think it's probable that when I find a certain type of behavior to be so far from what I'm really like, I callously joke about it as if everyone ought to know that it's an exaggeration. I did that here, and you're not to blame for not being "in" on the joke.

I would not actually "flip the table" or "storm out". But I might joke about it to stop myself from actually doing it, if that makes sense.
 

Give me your full character sheet and I'll tell you why you're probably wrong. I can't check your numbers because I don't know them.
I gave you the numbers - there's nothing complicated about them. Level 20 mercy monk with bracers of defence, eldritch claw tattoo, and ring of protection. Bog standard feat choices - ability upgrades to max (so dex/wisdom 24/24). I don't think you need to see the character sheet - all I did was take my level 12 character and bump them to level 20. Standard array to start.
Why would the dragon ever do that?? It would be flying, and there's not much you can do when it is 100 feet in the air (I would think... again, I don't have your character sheet...).
There's nothing it can do to the monk at 100 feet, either. Like, at all. And since, as I started with, these are mental exercises that I do when I have insomnia, "what would happen if a dragon flew 100' above my monk at level 20?" isn't going to help me much. I do exercises like, "could my level 12 monk solo a storm giant?" (yes, easily) or, when this stat block came out, "hmmm...what about that dragon?"

If the dragon was immune to poison, it would be a different story, though the monk might still win. I should math it out with an elemental monk, since that takes flying off the table for the dragon. Long story short: high level monks are OP! IMO.
 


Right buy we don't know if that DC is overtuned for the CR, or if that is the appropriate DC at that level.
You mean if they are going to change it before publication, or just if they made it high for its CR?

I'm not sure that the book will help any with the latter, other than (I suppose) a comparison to other similar creatures.

I assume you mean the last bit.
 

You mean if they are going to change it before publication, or just if they made it high for its CR?

I'm not sure that the book will help any with the latter, other than (I suppose) a comparison to other similar creatures.

I assume you mean the last bit.
In other words: will creatures of similar CR have abilities with similar DCs.
 


Well, power creep and OP changes in 2024... what do you expect? Even @Clint_L (who initially loved the monk changes) says they are sort of too much now IIRC.
They are probably very good. I had hoped they would nerf the reaction a bit. Monk die + double proficiency bonus + dex or so.
But I really question him im that the monk receives no damage. A monk only has one reaction. And if they use it to reduce damage, the dragon does not even need flyby.
That's because they are supposed to be just big bags of HP. 🤷‍♂️
Because very high AC is frustrating and volatile. If you deal damage, you feel progression. If I would change something it would be players doing less dage overall.

Mike @mearls in his experimental game removed +stat to damage.
That was something I had in mind in early dndnext too. My reasoning back then was that if you remove stat from damage, you can lower low level foe HP. And 2 or 4 hp make a difference for a monster.
And then I'd add some class bonus to either melee damage at later levels. And maybe a smaller one for ranged at point blank.

For 5.14 I removed +stat from damage for any ranged attack beyond 30ft. Except when you spend all your movement to aim (then you can extend that range to 60ft).
Why? Because all my players only initially built ranged characters.

Look at something like this dragon, it has what? like half a dozen features? Compare that to a 20th level PC who is rocking 30 or more often enough...
The dragon seems to be doing fine against an average unprepared party of 4.
Only having to fight 3 characters at a time at most and then being very disruptive for another one seems get the job done. Very unfun for the target of the banishment. But they are attacking a good aligned ancient dragon. In a way that is asking to be played with.

I still think, having line of sight requirement (or the place they were banished from if the dragon has no sight) would make the power more balanced (and I would play it that way probably). And then a gold dragon lair would feature cages without doors. And every round one player would be replaced into one of them. And the dragon would not try to kill the players but just force them to stop attacking.

Of course, if the players have any sort of preparation, a cage won't stop them, but then the dragon can go to more lethal methods.
 

Yikes, I didn't realize Monks got that feature. I'm glad I cap abilities scores at 18 in my games!
That assumes nearly all ASI go into only stat boosts. So a monk very optimized for combat. I still don't buy that the monk will go first every time. With Alert, they might have a chance (+13 initiative).

The dragon has standard initiative of +19. Mybe the monk roll with advantage. Then it seems rather like a 50-50 chance.
 

I don't want to start a whole new thread for just oen question, so i will ask here:

What is the power creep for 2024 compared to 2014? More specifically, if I run a 2014 adventure, do I need to adjust encounters or consider the party a level higher or anything?

Thanks.
 

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