D&D (2024) Testing against the Gold Dragon

[MonsterEnvy]

I don't want to start a whole new thread for just oen question, so i will ask here:

What is the power creep for 2024 compared to 2014? More specifically, if I run a 2014 adventure, do I need to adjust encounters or consider the party a level higher or anything?

Thanks.

Not nearly as large as people think.

 

[Clint_L]

Yikes, I didn't realize Monks got that feature. I'm glad I cap abilities scores at 18 in my games!

I don't blame people for being skeptical - a single character shouldn't be able to easily go toe-to-toe with a CR24 ancient dragon without shenanigans or extraordinary gear, at the least. Quite a few of us flagged that high level monks were kind of broken in the play test. I guess WotC is making up for a decade of monks being sub-par?

 

[dave2008]

I gave you the numbers - there's nothing complicated about them. Level 20 mercy monk with bracers of defence, eldritch claw tattoo, and ring of protection. Bog standard feat choices - ability upgrades to max (so dex/wisdom 24/24). I don't think you need to see the character sheet - all I did was take my level 12 character and bump them to level 20. Standard array to start.

There's nothing it can do to the monk at 100 feet, either. Like, at all. And since, as I started with, these are mental exercises that I do when I have insomnia, "what would happen if a dragon flew 100' above my monk at level 20?" isn't going to help me much. I do exercises like, "could my level 12 monk solo a storm giant?" (yes, easily) or, when this stat block came out, "hmmm...what about that dragon?"

If the dragon was immune to poison, it would be a different story, though the monk might still win. I should math it out with an elemental monk, since that takes flying off the table for the dragon. Long story short: high level monks are OP! IMO.

Clint, is there a reason the gold dragon didn't banish the monk? That is a difficult save for the monk, causes 24 force damage, and allows the dragon to place the monk 120 ft away from the dragon. Within the range of the dragon's Guiding Bolt, but outside the range of the Monk's movement. This seems like the best strategy for the dragon and a possible easy win in less than 7 rounds if it works.

Also, since the CR of the dragon is dependent on it using all 3 of its Legendary Actions. If you limit it to only 1, then it is no longer CR 24, it is more like CR 22. I always give legendary monsters access to all there LA.

 

[Clint_L]

Clint, is there a reason the gold dragon didn't banish the monk? That is a difficult save for the monk, causes 24 force damage, and allows the dragon to place the monk 120 ft away from the dragon. Within the range of the dragon's Guiding Bolt, but outside the range of the Monk's movement. This seems like the best strategy for the dragon and a possible easy win in less than 7 rounds if it works.

Also, since the CR of the dragon is dependent on it using all 3 of its Legendary Actions. If you limit it to only 1, then it is no longer CR 24, it is more like CR 22. I always give legendary monsters access to all there LA.

Creatures can only use a legendary action at the end of an opponent's turn (unless that has changed in the new rules?), so against one opponent it gets one action. Banish is definitely a good bet for it - it's about 50/50 (my monk is +8 on charisma tests, with the re-roll if needed - I gave her a 12 charisma because of her backstory) and would be a good means of escape - which it should definitely do. I think I mentioned it upthread as the dragon's best choice. Keep in mind that if it is choosing to use banish it is getting only three melee attacks, which averages to less than one hit per round, which the monk can easily deflect. At this point, the dragon's melee damage output is effectively 0, its breath weapon is useless, and it is trying to defeat a whirlwind of death with banish alone. Bad odds.

Plus, if the dragon tries to make it an attrition fight, the monk just stops spending focus to do damage off deflect attack, which is not very efficient, and uses hand of healing as needed - each use is 20 points of healing, and the monk now has 17 rounds to kill the dragon. The monk just has so many defensive options, and can maintain them while doing considerable offence. Many of us pointed out in the play test that deflect attack is OP, but here we are.

Don't take my word for it - play around with the math. And recall that this monk is minimally geared - next give the monk, say, +2 wraps (not a stretch on a level 20 character) and see what that does to the fight. Or what if she drinks the potion of speed she's had in her bag since level 9? These have all been insomnia scenarios that I've run (I also tried it with both the potion of speed and +3 wraps but it was embarrassing for the dragon and didn't take much figuring, so I moved on).

Level 20 monks are busted.

 

[FitzTheRuke]

I don't want to start a whole new thread for just oen question, so i will ask here:

What is the power creep for 2024 compared to 2014? More specifically, if I run a 2014 adventure, do I need to adjust encounters or consider the party a level higher or anything?

Thanks.

IMO, it depends far more on whether you play with optimizers (and I mean, both as they build the character and as they play their turns) or not than it does on 14/24.

A 2024 character IS much easier to create a tough character with - less "trap" options, more solid choices. But it's not particularly more OP at the higher end of optimization. AND if your players don't always pick the best thing they could possibly do each turn (mine don't) then it's hardly noticeable.

I don't play a lot of games over Level 10, though, so take the above under that consideration.

I've run a number of 2014-based Adventures without a problem, but then again, I'm not sure that I've ever run any published adventure ever without adjusting encounters based on the specific party and the specific players, so I might not even notice when I do it. So it's possible that I have "adjusted" the encounters (like I always do) without being aware of it.

Either way, I've had more trouble with certain 2014 builds at the table than I've had with any 2024 builds, but it's early days, in a lot of ways, so... IDK.

 

[dave2008]

Creatures can only use a legendary action at the end of an opponent's turn (unless that has changed in the new rules?), so against one opponent it gets one action.

Yes that is RAW, but not ROI. I think a DM has to be smart about these things. That being said, when I design monsters for others to use I make it explicit in the legendary actions section of the stat block to prevent such abuse.

Banish is definitely a good bet for it - it's about 50/50 (my monk is +8 on charisma tests, with the re-roll if needed) and would be a good means of escape - which it should definitely do. I think I mentioned it upthread as the dragon's best choice.

Banish is a DC 24, with only a +8 your going to fail a good deal. The banish also inflicts 24 force damage and Incapacitates the target (removing Superior Defense). It then places (or drops) the Monk 120 feet away and takes its turn. It can move 40 ft. attack with one of its two breath weapons or Guiding Bolt and move 40 ft. to stay out of the Monk's range. Rinse and Repeat. So even with only 1 LA it could do about 59 damage per round and never be touched. Now that strategy is not going to work 100%, but it seems like the dragon could easily take the monk down in less than the 7 rounds you said it would take for it to kill the dragon.

 

[FitzTheRuke]

It wouldn't matter if the dragon dropped ta 20th level monk from 120ft in the air. The monk would reduce 12d6 falling damage by 100 and take nothing. It doesn't counter @dave2008's argument, and I'm not trying to, but it's another little piece of @Clint_L's story.

I think the truth is that it doesn't matter if the monk 100% solos the dragon or not. The fact that it can come close is... not great for the dragon.

 

[dave2008]

It wouldn't matter if the dragon dropped ta 20th level monk from 120ft in the air. The monk would reduce 12d6 falling damage by 100 and take nothing. It doesn't counter @dave2008's argument, and I'm not trying to, but it's another little piece of @Clint_L's story.

It doesn't need to drop the monk at all to make it work. But I have to admit, I know next to nothing about monks and what they can do!

I think the truth is that it doesn't matter if the monk 100% solos the dragon or not. The fact that it can come close is... not great for the dragon.

Yes, I agree on this. That being said, if my understanding was correct above (and it likely is not), the roles are mostly reversed with the dragon taking the monk out in 4-5 rounds and the dragon taking no damage. Regardless, high CR threats need to hit harder!

I am getting excited to leave CR behind and focus on design monsters by level instead!

 

[FitzTheRuke]

I am getting excited to leave CR behind and focus on design monsters by level instead!

Yup! "To heck with" CR!

(I'd say something stronger, but Eric's Grandma and all that).

 

[Clint_L]

Banish is a DC 24, with only a +8 your going to fail a good deal.

You will fail 55% of the time.

The banish also inflicts 24 force damage and Incapacitates the target (removing Superior Defense).

That's true, but the monk doesn't need superior defence in this scenario - it's basically there as a fall-back if the dragon gets lucky and hits twice on a turn...which is less likely if it is giving up an attack for banish. So the monk should just save the 3 focus points...which I considered doing anyway, since the superior defence doesn't really factor into any of the math above.

It then places (or drops) the Monk 120 feet away and takes its turn.

It can move 40 ft. attack with one of its two breath weapons or Guiding Bolt and move 40 ft. to stay out of the Monk's range.

Its breath weapons and guiding bolt are basically useless against a level 20 monk. Also, this level 20 monk has 135' attack range (60' move, 60' dash action, 15' eldritch claw tattoo, still gets three attacks with flurry of blows). So all banish is really doing is slowing the fight down and doing 24 force damage...about the same as one hand of healing. But in this scenario it does take the monk about twice as long to kill the dragon.

Rinse and Repeat. So even with only 1 LA it could do about 59 damage per round and never be touched.

See above.

Now that strategy is not going to work 100%, but it seems like the dragon could easily take the monk down in less than the 7 rounds you said it would take for it to kill the dragon.

It won't work any percent. It doesn't speed the fight up, it slows it down.