The D&D 4th edition Rennaissaince: A look into the history of the edition, its flaws and its merits

[Joshua Randall]

This rehashing of the 4e edition war is DELIGHTFUL. I simply cannot get enough of it.

/S

 

[Staffan]

Yeah, it certainly seems plausible that PF won via only the metrics ICV2 looks at and in the total aggregate picture 4E was still tops.

And, to the extent PF did beat 4e using ICV2's metrics, it's not "Pathfinder sold more than 4e", it's "Pathfinder sold more than 4e from Q2 2011 to Summer 2014". Which is basically the period when they stopped making new 4e stuff and focused on making 5e instead.

 

[Reynard]

Wasn't 3E the edition with the shortest life span? 3.5 came out very quickly, IIRC.

so did Essentials, if you want to treat that as 4e but 3.5 as separate then you might be right, but that feels like trying to force the facts to fit the argument

I just looked it up, and 3.5 was after 3 years and Essentials was after 2 years.

So, yeah. Quick.

Note: I played a lot of 3e and 3.5, and relatively little 4e. I don't know if they are comparable shifts. 3.0-->3.5 is a significant mechanical shift, far bigger than 5.14 to 5.24 so far.

 

[Jacob Lewis]

Unpossible. You’re seeing it happen in real time in this thread. 4e must always, always be raked over the coals whenever its name is mentioned. It’s like Hastur but you only need to say it once.

I see it all the time. But I try not to give it more oxygen than necessary. So maybe I can offer you some free advice?

1. Stop engaging with obvious click-bait material. Just because some random person with an internet account wants to explain their unoriginal ideas and pass it off as insightful, meaningful, or otherwise "wonderful" content that nobody asked for, doesn't make it impactful. You don't need to show up and prove anything when it's obvious what its actually "ful" of.

2. It's too late to go back and try to have discussions about what did or didn't happen with anyone who wasn't even there. And a lot of people who were there either weren't paying close enough attention to form an individual opinion based on personal perspectives beyond general assumptions made by a largely resistant and rabid fanbase, or were not privy to any real insider facts and data to validate their claims. Let the haters hate.

3. Start with more positive discussions. Seriously. Quit wasting energy in these threads that invite constant rehashing of pros vs cons. It only brings the same people back with their same arguments and their same perspectives. You want to talk about the good things with 4e? So do I! But it won't happen here. Not like this. Stop complaining. Stop fighting with others about it. Start discussing the positive with people who never stopped enjoying this system, and would rather talk to others who continue to find joy with it.

 

[BrokenTwin]

I just looked it up, and 3.5 was after 3 years and Essentials was after 2 years.

So, yeah. Quick.

Note: I played a lot of 3e and 3.5, and relatively little 4e. I don't know if they are comparable shifts. 3.0-->3.5 is a significant mechanical shift, far bigger than 5.14 to 5.24 so far.

Despite the poor marketing making figuring it out at the time difficult, mechanically there wasn't really any difference between 4E base and Essentials at the system level. The classes were build differently, but existed within the same overall structure. You could use stuff from base next to stuff from Essentials with zero issue or changes required.

 

[Echohawk]

and it is still conveniently vague. 4e sold less than 3e (Ben Riggs), it had good initial sales but then probably dropped off faster than any other edition (given that it sold less despite stronger initial sales). Them all declining is trying to hide that.

If you are convinced that @Alphastream and the WotC employees cited have some reason to hide facts about 4e's success or failure, I'm not going to try to disabuse you of that notion. I'm quite content to have provided other readers of this thread with a link to what seems to me to be a reasonably put together article on this topic.

 

[Tigris]

so did Essentials, if you want to treat that as 4e but 3.5 as separate then you might be right, but that feels like trying to force the facts to fit the argument

Essential material is literally completly compatible. It did not replace anything. 3.5 did replace things. Essentials are just other books with different material. PHB 1 stuff can be combined with. Its not a new edition. It becomes pretty clear when you look at the later "heroes of X" books (which were how the Essential books were named). Because it had many material in it specifically compatible with (almost requiring) PHB1/PHB2/PHB3 material. Like Monk Subclasses.

"WoW was an influence" is not an insult, nor is it the same thing as saying "4E was based on WoW." Given the time and the state of fantasy gaming at the time, it is hard to imagine how WoW COULD NOT have been an influence on 4E.

Well easily: The lead designer did only play WoW for like 2-3 hours, did not like it and took other influences. This is why I posted the video with him stating that.

I thought it was recently revealed that the WotC brass were looking at games like WoW specifically and asking the designers to make something designed to draw in those players, because they wanted a slice of that pie?

Yes the business model. The designers were starting designing it without knowing about digital tools. Thats why it is based to be played in real life (with cards (but also without)). Cards are NOT required they just help. Also you were not needed to buy them (you could) but you could also print them yourself.

And, to the extent PF did beat 4e using ICV2's metrics, it's not "Pathfinder sold more than 4e", it's "Pathfinder sold more than 4e from Q2 2011 to Summer 2014". Which is basically the period when they stopped making new 4e stuff and focused on making 5e instead.

Ok again the people quoted on the link before stated: "PATHFINDER NEVER OUTSOLD D&D 4E" as in never. NO also not during that time period. Just in 1 metric which no one knew how exactly it was made and which only looked at US based hobby shops.

D&D 4E also sold PDFs (and digitally) and in other countries and in walmart etc. not just in hobby shops.

 

[Reynard]

Well easily: The lead designer did only play WoW for like 2-3 hours, did not like it and took other influences. This is why I posted the video with him stating that.

Why do you think that the lead designer is the only person who has influence over a game? And why do you think "liking it" has anything to do with it?

 

[Jacob Lewis]

I can tell you the number of times the people at my game table were alarmed by the thought of playing a game that was being OUTSOLD by another game. It's zero.

 

[BrokenTwin]

I can tell you the number of times the people at my game table were alarmed by the thought of playing a game that was being OUTSOLD by another game. It's zero.

Yeah, as someone who plays a wide variety of ttrpgs, the concern that the game we're playing isn't topping the sales charts has literally never happened. Popularity does not have a 1:1 relationship with quality.