The D&D 4th edition Rennaissaince: A look into the history of the edition, its flaws and its merits

yeah, that is still not how lying works, all you have done is show that I do not keep a handy link for every claim I make, just like everyone else. Good job :rolleyes:
Oh really? So you're finally going to show that data then? Yeah, that's what I thought.

After claiming you were done with me you're still here, it's hilarious how desperate you are to have the last word :ROFLMAO:
 

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Oh really? So you're finally going to show that data then? Yeah, that's what I thought.
still missing the point I see, tried looking for the sales drop in a link that you would accept, but it is the same type of hearsay you refer to when it suits your needs...
 

Yeah, it certainly seems plausible that PF won via only the metrics ICV2 looks at and in the total aggregate picture 4E was still tops.

That all being said, this reminds me of the old Norm Macdonald joke about Germany fighting the world twice "But this time, it was really close". Like, the fact that it was that close is in and of itself notable. The last time D&D was anywhere near that place in the market was in the late 90s when 2E was on life support and TSR ceased to exist.
Certainly.

That said, there's a flipside to that flipside. The thing that D&D "got really close" to being beaten by was not some radically different system that came out of left field. It wasn't a long-time competitor that finally crept up on it.

It was D&D beating D&D, because--for the first time since the Advanced/Basic split--you had two competing versions both being produced by companies with comparable amounts of resources. And one of those two was explicitly and completely built on the premise, "You don't have to give up ANYTHING you love. Every resource you currently have, you can use. Promise. We'll never, ever take that away from you."

And, of course, they eventually broke that promise--but only after (roughly) another 10 years of play after 4e had launched. When they did, Mr. Bulmahn of Paizo gave a really quite articulate and compelling plea for patience and understanding, wherein he explained the specific design reasons why they felt they had to abandon the Pathfinder 1e chassis. Pretty much every point he made there was precisely what critics of 3e (and thus PF1e, which was functionally 3e with house-rules) had been saying for something like 17 years at that point: casters are too powerful, the flaws of the combat system are baked into almost every monster, iterative attacks suck but removing them is too painful, etc.

Of course, there are other ways to address these issues! Some of them are quite clever even, such as Dreamscarred Press's Spheres books, the Spheres of Might and Spheres of Power. The former functionally (though not literally) deletes Full Attacks by creating a slew of "Special Attack Actions" that cannot be done alongside a Full Attack, thus opening up rich design space and encouraging much more dynamic combat. Conversely, the latter deletes Vancian spellcasting because that system is too broken to fix, and replaces it with spheres of magic, loosely equivalent to some ideas found in the old 2e D&D Priest, where each sphere is highly focused and requires creativity and/or specialization in order to truly become a powerhouse.

In other words, it's a bit like saying that the US Civil War remains the bloodiest and most destructive war the United States has ever fought. This is true...but it's heavily depending on the fact that all casualties and all damage numbers and lost productivity etc. etc. are counted for both sides of the war. If you treat the two sides as two completely different countries, rather than one single country fighting against itself, then WWII has the North and South beaten individually.

In a very very real sense, PF1e wasn't a different system. It was the old system being given a chance to directly and sustainably compete with the new system. Of course the old system won! It was, by definition, less costly to stick with what you had than to switch to something new, especially given all the other problems, both self-inflicted and entirely preventable mistakes, and tragic and unpredictable events.
 


The argument over 4E's relative popularity or profitability seems pointless so many years later. It's more useful to debate the merits of its design with relation to modern D&D.
No one will permit such a discussion to occur. 100% of the time, someone will rebut any previous analysis or claim with, "Well, it utterly failed as a product, so clearly those design decisions were bad." Likewise, any attempt to criticize anything 5e does--even when the designers themselves made that criticism first--will be rebutted with "well, it sold extremely well, so it must have been great design."

I've had this argument so many times, I can't count them. It never, ever dies, no matter what. 4e was bad because it sold poorly, and it sold poorly because everything in it was bad. 5e is great because it sold well, and it sold well because everything in it is great.

For example, I was kind of excited by the possibility of the return of the bloodied condition and associated effects with 2024, but it seems they have pulled back on that. Too bad. A5E uses it to good effect with some monsters.
Indeed. This one is particularly disappointing because bloodied is...well, I mean, it's really simple, right? Like this seems like the kind of thing that could've been a mechanic even in 2e. (I dunno if it's quite...woolly enough for 1e-and-earlier.) It creates a lot of useful design space without really adding any particularly significant heft. I can't think of how one could go about making a simpler bolt-on mechanic, even for the existing 5e combat system.

Even if they wanted to shy away from "bloodied" as a term because it smells too much like 4e, they could've called it "battered" or the like, since that's more generic.

(Also, notice how everyone got so twisted up in knots about slimes being knocked "prone", but nobody ever complained about, I dunno, skeletons or iron golems becoming "bloodied"? The bitter aftertaste of irony never truly goes away...)
 

Mod Note:
Hey, @Chemo - you are being about 10x too aggressive, and come off as far too invested in calling people liars. So, you're done in this thread. Don't repeat this performance with others.

@mamba - next time, when you make strong claims, make sure you can bring strong evidence, because insisting you have the truth without evidence is uncool, and sets up this nonsense. And when you get called on not having evidence, maybe disengage rather than argue a point you won't support.
 
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No one will permit such a discussion to occur. 100% of the time, someone will rebut any previous analysis or claim with, "Well, it utterly failed as a product, so clearly those design decisions were bad." Likewise, any attempt to criticize anything 5e does--even when the designers themselves made that criticism first--will be rebutted with "well, it sold extremely well, so it must have been great design."

I've had this argument so many times, I can't count them. It never, ever dies, no matter what. 4e was bad because it sold poorly, and it sold poorly because everything in it was bad. 5e is great because it sold well, and it sold well because everything in it is great.

Well put, as always.

And note that any attempt to refute the “4e utterly failed as a product” claim which is VASTLY overstated(*) — will be met with a new round of even nastier invective.

(*) Utterly failed products do not get 6 years. They get 6 MONTHS.
 

As noted, I promised I would look up Fighter powers that met the description given (2d6+mod damage to all enemies in a 15' cube). In 4e terms, that's a Close Blast 3 (area of effect is a 3x3 area where a side or corner of that area must touch the user's space).

Fighters have exactly one power with the Blast area type, and it does [2W]+STR damage, so in theory it could be 2d6+Str...but it's only Close Blast 2, not Close Blast 3. So the claimed power, as noted, does not exist. It also has various riders (you get a surge of movement before using it, and enemies near you until the start of your next turn have worse accuracy.)

Of course, there is another possibility, but it would break the "15' cube" thing, being a Burst 1 (all enemies whose space is touching the user's space, including touching corners). There are several more Burst 1 powers, but all of them are even less like what was described than the previous one.

Edit: And, likewise, there are only 4 powers available to Rogues that have the Blast area type. Only one of them is Blast 3, and that power...does fixed Dex modifier damage to anyone it hits. It also requires a ranged weapon in order to use it, as it's literally a volley of attacks.
 

I've been thinking about the seemingly conflicting points of view on the financial success of 4e that we have from various parties and wondering if there is anyway to reconcile them. I think there may be.

I reread @Alzrius's summary of Riggs's presentation at GenCon 2023 as well as @Alphastream's analysis of the various comments made by WotC staffers that 4e sales were solid.

Something that leapt out at me was that despite @mamba repeatedly claiming that Riggs said 4e was the worst selling edition, that's not what Alzrius wrote in their summary. They wrote: "At that point, Riggs noted that the 4E PHB sold far less than the 3E PHBs." For me this is an important distinction, because PHB sales is not the same thing as overall sales across an edition, especially when it comes to 4E.

So let's assume that Riggs is correct on this specific point (that the 4E PHB sold less than the 3E PHBs), but also assume that Chris Sims is telling the truth when he says "the game did fine early in its life cycle" and that Alphastream is correct when he writes "4E [had] stronger presales and opening sales than 3E" and "Sales held strong throughout the edition's lifetime" and "4E enjoyed strong book sales, although they declined over time as all prior editions have declined".

A key point in reconciling those is Chris Sims's comment that "Part of 4e's problem was too many books too quickly from the game's inception". Another important point is realising that the content that would usually have gone into the PHB was, in 4e, split across the PHB1, the PHB2 and (to a lesser extent) the PHB3.

So let's spit-ball/make up some numbers that would support all of these facts.​
  • The 3.5 PHB sells 300,000 units. It does this over (mostly) six years, with sales of, say, 120k, 60k, 50k, 40k, 20k, 10k.​
  • The 4E PHB sells only 200,000 units, and it does almost of these sales over the first three years, with sales of 150k, 30k, 20k.​
  • The 4E PHB2 sells 120,000 units. It sells better than non-core 3E books because, for 4E it is also core.​
  • The 4E PHB3 sells 60,000 units, etc.​
In this scenario, it would be true that 4E had stronger initial sales than 3.5. Riggs would be still be correct when comparing total sales of just the 4E PHB against the 3.5 PHB. And, because WotC was churning out so many core books, it would also be the case that 4E had strong sales overall. Voilà!

Of course, this doesn't resolve the question of whether or not 4E was the worst selling edition. To determine that, we'd first need to agree on how to measure. Is "worst selling" determined solely by number of PHB1's sold? Total print products sales over the lifespan of the edition? Total revenue earned including digital sales (which were significant for 4E)? Good luck getting agreement on that! And even if there was agreement on how to measure "worst selling", we still simply don't have enough information to answer the question.

For now, at least, I don't think anyone on this thread can really make credible claims about 4E being the "worst selling" edition (or not!).​
 

I've been thinking about the seemingly conflicting points of view on the financial success of 4e that we have from various parties and wondering if there is anyway to reconcile them. I think there may be.

I reread @Alzrius's summary of Riggs's presentation at GenCon 2023 as well as @Alphastream's analysis of the various comments made by WotC staffers that 4e sales were solid.

Something that leapt out at me was that despite @mamba repeatedly claiming that Riggs said 4e was the worst selling edition, that's not what Alzrius wrote in their summary. They wrote: "At that point, Riggs noted that the 4E PHB sold far less than the 3E PHBs." For me this is an important distinction, because PHB sales is not the same thing as overall sales across an edition, especially when it comes to 4E.

So let's assume that Riggs is correct on this specific point (that the 4E PHB sold less than the 3E PHBs), but also assume that Chris Sims is telling the truth when he says "the game did fine early in its life cycle" and that Alphastream is correct when he writes "4E [had] stronger presales and opening sales than 3E" and "Sales held strong throughout the edition's lifetime" and "4E enjoyed strong book sales, although they declined over time as all prior editions have declined".

A key point in reconciling those is Chris Sims's comment that "Part of 4e's problem was too many books too quickly from the game's inception". Another important point is realising that the content that would usually have gone into the PHB was, in 4e, split across the PHB1, the PHB2 and (to a lesser extent) the PHB3.

So let's spit-ball/make up some numbers that would support all of these facts.​
  • The 3.5 PHB sells 300,000 units. It does this over (mostly) six years, with sales of, say, 120k, 60k, 50k, 40k, 20k, 10k.​
  • The 4E PHB sells only 200,000 units, and it does almost of these sales over the first three years, with sales of 150k, 30k, 20k.​
  • The 4E PHB2 sells 120,000 units. It sells better than non-core 3E books because, for 4E it is also core.​
  • The 4E PHB3 sells 60,000 units, etc.​
In this scenario, it would be true that 4E had stronger initial sales than 3.5. Riggs would be still be correct when comparing total sales of just the 4E PHB against the 3.5 PHB. And, because WotC was churning out so many core books, it would also be the case that 4E had strong sales overall. Voilà!

Of course, this doesn't resolve the question of whether or not 4E was the worst selling edition. To determine that, we'd first need to agree on how to measure. Is "worst selling" determined solely by number of PHB1's sold? Total print products sales over the lifespan of the edition? Total revenue earned including digital sales (which were significant for 4E)? Good luck getting agreement on that! And even if there was agreement on how to measure "worst selling", we still simply don't have enough information to answer the question.

For now, at least, I don't think anyone on this thread can really make credible claims about 4E being the "worst selling" edition (or not!).​
Furthermore, even if it were the "worst-selling" edition, would that necessarily also mean that its sales were therefore very bad?

Consider five doctors. By definition, so long as no two salaries are equal, one of them must have the lowest salary. Doctor A makes a cool million each year, being one of the top brain surgeons on the planet. B makes $990k a year, just shy of A--she's still a top-flight brain surgeon. C makes $970k a year, a little less but still extremely high, they do cancer therapy. D makes $899k a year, noticeably less but still a huge income, he's an immunologist. And E makes $920k.

D, objectively, makes the least out of all of them. But would any of us consider him in any way impoverished relative to his medical peers? I wouldn't think so. Even if he makes about 10% less than Dr. A...it's still not only a six-figure income, but a very high six-figure income. Obviously I invented these numbers, but the point stands that even if one could objectively and unequivocally prove that 4e, by whatever metric, was the worst-selling edition of all time, that claim in isolation isn't nearly as strong as many folks wish it to be.
 

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