D&D General Ray Winninger on 5e’s success, product cadence, the OGL, and more.

[Dire Bare]

It might just be that I perhaps just don't see the break as being as possibly as wide as you? Frankly, I just don't think most of the playerbase cares... especially considering most of the playerbase doesn't even use 3rd party stuff where they'd need to worry about "compatibility" or the name of the version or any of that jazz.

To me.. I suspect most of the playerbase going forward over the next few years are gonna just load up DDB and/or Maps and/or Project Sigil and just play your basic, baseline D&D that those programs present to them. And not be concerned with anything else.

Of course, that's just my opinion... I could be wrong.

Personally, I'm team D&D 2024. I'm loving the refresh so far. However, I'm also on Team WotC in the sense that I don't see the 2024 rules as moving a great distance from the 2014 rules. They are the same game. Folks acting like the new rules are a "6th Edition" in the sense that it is a major shift . . . I just don't get it.

How is the community at large perceiving the distance? No idea. I see a lot of confusion from publishers doing 5E crowdfunding campaigns . . . I see a lot of sturm-and-drang here on the message boards . . . but little of that really translates into how the larger D&D community is perceiving the new rules. I think there is an impact, but likely not a huge one.

 

[mamba]

In terms of comparisons, the 5 month run is what WotC is comparing to the first 36 months of 5e. My point is simply this - why would WotC use that as their measure of success? Why share that measure when they specifically mention that they have other measures?

The product has been on the market for 5 months, it sold more than 2014 did in 3 years but less than it did in 4 years. I assume that is all there is to this comparison.

I do not think that half a year ago WotC decided internally that this would constitute success, it just ended up being where the numbers are at.

I am not sure what their actual expectations are, but I am sure they are not telling us what those are, not now even if they have been met and certainly not in advance

 

[Clint_L]

Personally, I'm team D&D 2024. I'm loving the refresh so far. However, I'm also on Team WotC in the sense that I don't see the 2024 rules as moving a great distance from the 2014 rules. They are the same game. Folks acting like the new rules are a "6th Edition" in the sense that it is a major shift . . . I just don't get it.

How is the community at large perceiving the distance? No idea. I see a lot of confusion from publishers doing 5E crowdfunding campaigns . . . I see a lot of sturm-and-drang here on the message boards . . . but little of that really translates into how the larger D&D community is perceiving the new rules. I think there is an impact, but likely not a huge one.

My home game switched mind-campaign and it was barely noticeable. It was barely an inconvenience; the biggest issue for me was when WotC switched their policy and left the 2014 rules automatically activated on DDB, so I had to go and manually de-list them on everyone's character sheets.

My new campaign at school launched with just the 2024 rules and the only real difference is that weapons mastery is kind of a PITA when dealing with newbies. I wish there was a toggle for it.

 

[Dire Bare]

As I am not really familiar with MtG or Warhammer (other than knowing what they are), what are their fundamental strategies?

Both Warhammer and Magic certainly make a lot of money, but . . . I know a lot of folks who got tired of riding those trains, including myself, and are looking to offload our collections. That's purely anecdotal, of course.

I'm paring my Magic collection down to decks that can fit into one or two "shoebox" card boxes and selling the rest. I'm paring down my Warhammer 40K collection to one army . . . or well, that's the plan. I'm having a really hard time deciding which one to hold onto. I'm certainly stopped purchasing new Magic cards, new Warhammer rulebooks, and new Warhammer minis.

The rapid-fire release of Magic sets has made me feel left behind and so I just gave up. I have some friends who started Magic with me back in college in the 90s (yeah) and we still like to play casual, but really only a couple of times a year.

The 3-year edition cycle of Warhammer has pushed me into anger. I am thinking about maybe keeping the models, but switching over to a fan-based ruleset like One Page Rules. I still love their models, but just feel like my money is better spent elsewhere.

 

[Dire Bare]

My home game switched mind-campaign and it was barely noticeable. It was barely an inconvenience; the biggest issue for me was when WotC switched their policy and left the 2014 rules automatically activated on DDB, so I had to go and manually de-list them on everyone's character sheets.

My new campaign at school launched with just the 2024 rules and the only real difference is that weapons mastery is kind of a PITA when dealing with newbies. I wish there was a toggle for it.

Heh. I just had a dad donate TEN copies of the 2014 PHB . . . my afterschool group isn't switching up anytime soon!

 

[mamba]

for me it's more about what WotC didn't do. Which is not do all the of the various random so-called "improvements" that every poster in places like here has claimed WotC should have done with the game-- whether that's not change anything substantial because it's no longer "compatible" (in their exceedingly specific definition of what they would claim 'compatibility' is)... or go the route of making a completely new game for a "true 6E"

but they did that because that is what their playtest polls told them to do, which is basically the current player base.

That some players want something other than what is getting released will always be true. Less changes for full compatibility or more changes for a fresher feel both would also get criticism.

The point is they listened to their players instead of doing something else, which would presumably have been for the benefit of new players rather than to upset existing ones

WotC hasn't catered to any of these people. Sure, they've asked for opinions but they haven't gone in any of the extreme directions that some of the players out there have wanted them to go. WotC has stayed very middle-of-the-road with 5E24 (in my opinion). Changed things that a lot of people have been okay with via the playtests, not changed things that many people have poo-poo'd in the playtests

so basically did what the majority wanted rather than either of the much smaller extreme ends. So how is that not catering to the existing base?

 

[WinningerR]

There's a lot to unpack here.

You left Wizards in October of 2022. Are you saying that the entire plan for the new edition was laid down and locked in, to the point that you were sourcing the book's manufacture?

You had print windows and everything set up, to the point you were sourcing materials and buying the paper, at the same time you launched the playtest of the new edition? To the point that you are point blank stating that the margins were all locked in and figured out in '22 for a '24 release?

What was the point of the playtest?

WotC hasn’t released a single D&D product after my departure that wasn’t initially planned by my team. (That will finally happen toward the end of this year.) We planned four years out, and those plans included long range forecasts that were reviewed by the print production team, among many others. Planning for the new PHB began in late 2020 and we were advised, even then, our forecast was large enough that the job would almost certainly require multiple printers unless we could send the book to press much earlier than usual. And yes, we usually reserved “slots” at various printers at least a year in advance. We didn’t know the final margin on any book until around a year before it was printed, but we made educated estimates of margins long before that (and those estimates factored in things like rising paper costs). In my time on D&D, these initial estimates significantly deviated from the final margins just once, and that was a dice product.

Paper was often purchased well in advance, but not necessarily earmarked to a particular product at the time of purchase; D&D books all use the same paper stock. Sourcing paper and managing production capacity alongside the R&D and reprint schedules is really, really complicated. Again, the people who managed that were very good.

As for the playtest, we had target release dates and working schedules for the three core books in 2021. We even had target page counts and proposed Tables of Contents. We built a full year of playtesting into the PHB’s schedule, and we had a detailed plan for how the playtest would roll out and how/when we would collect and implement feedback. By that time, all player-facing content underwent public playtesting so we had a good handle on the process. It’s not unlike how James Gunn knew in March of 2022 that his Superman movie would hit theaters in July of 2025 even though he hadn’t finished its script yet, much less conducted test screenings and reshoots; all of that was built into the schedule.

 

[eyeheartawk]

but they did that because that is what their playtest polls told them to do, which is basically the current player base.

That some players want something other than what is getting released will
always be true. Less changes for full compatibility or more changes for a fresher feel both would also get criticism.

The point is they listened to their players instead of doing something else, which would presumably have been for the benefit of new players rather than to upset existing ones

Genuine question: What was changed because of playtest feedback? I wasn't following it super closely but it seemed to me the consensus was that the playtest was pretty much pointless because nothjng changed?

 

[John Lloyd1]

I gotta figure it’s an attempt to blunt some tariff issues and shipping interruptions since it has sounded to me like the US market has been served my US printing, the EU by EU printing, and Asia/Oceania by Chinese printing.

I'm not sure is Oceania books are being printed in China for 2024 Core. The Alt cover ones I have were printed in the US and purchased in Australia.

 

[mamba]

Magic: Reprint their back catalog to hell and back, driving down resell value for the players, while pushing massive power in new sets to drive increased purchasing, while also leaning into their own direct sale Secret Lairs model

the second half of that sounds like it applies to D&D as well.