D&D (2024) New Celestials | 2024 Monster Manual | D&D

[Reynard]

Since Kieth's comments were mentioned, I thought qouting them here makes sense.




I know about a theoretical connect via the Plane of Shadows, did not know about the connections with the other transitive planes. Although there is no Plane of Shadows Transitive Plane outside Eberron anymore so it's like what is transitioning between now. It's like an Orphan Plane.

Also Eberron being impossible to reach or level is out the Window with Vecna: Eve of Ruin. Even E: RftLW had Vi in Sigil as a Planeswalker.

And what is blocking one from going through the transitive planes to reach Eberron, the Crystal Sphere? Does it exist in all planes at once?

Anyways back to Celestials, it does leave the Question of out Titans/ especially Empyreans if both types fit into the setting as well if they are made in a different way to the rest of the Multiverse?

"Just as in the core D&D cosmology" literally means they are similar but explicitly not the same.

It's a retcon.

 

[Bae'zel]

Sphinxes:
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That's truly beautiful art, but I miss Sphinxes and Manticores with human faces. I wonder why that changed in Fantasy media in general?

 

[dave2008]

That's truly beautiful art, but I miss Sphinxes and Manticores with human faces. I wonder why that changed in Fantasy media in general?

I don't know about the 2024 art, but the 2014 manticore had a monstrously human head:

 

[Bae'zel]

I don't know about the 2024 art, but the 2014 manticore had a monstrously human head:

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I hope that they stay with this!

Sadly, while looking up "Manticores" on MyMiniFactory for models, it sure looked like the majority had Leonine heads, which disappointed me.

 

[Corinnguard]

I don't know about the 2024 art, but the 2014 manticore had a monstrously human head:

View attachment 394884

If WoTC wanted a more cultured-looking Manticore, they could have gone with this fella:

This is from the first Xanth novel, A Spell for Chameleon

 

[Weiley31]

So Tieflings are offspring of Empyreans too?

"Dad, why do I have the devil in me?"

"Son, I'm gonna be honest with you. Your Mother was HOT!"

Ice Devil wife, in human form that has slight Mantis features, slooooooowly peaks head from around the corner, glaring at her grinning husband who shoots her a happy look back.
Using Telepathy directly to him only, responds back in a loving, but playful/sarcastic/deadpan remark that has a TINGE of being %100 serious.

"I should've bitten your head off that night."
Smiles and heads to the garden "Love ya dear."

"What's Mom saying now?"

"That when we first met, TOTALLY felt the same way about me."

 

[occam]

Games Workshop made a large number of changes to their various IPs specifically to protect them from being used by other companies, unpending decades of terminology. I see a possible similarly here.

This concern doesn't seem relevant for the case at hand. WotC can't claim intellectual ownership of Giant Eagles, Celestial or otherwise. You'd have a point if the Celestial Giant Eagles had been renamed.

 

[dave2008]

"Just as in the core D&D cosmology" literally means they are similar but explicitly not the same.

It's a retcon.

So your saying Keith is lying when he said:

"The idea is there that it COULD be possible, but it has absolutely ALWAYS been there: from the very beginning, Eberron had its own unique cosmology, but that entire cosmology was still part of the broader system of astral/ethereal/shadow."

and

"Likewise, the fact that this means that Cyric and Bane exist somewhere in the universe is utterly meaningless in Eberron. This doesn't mean that "Gods definitively exist", because as others have pointed out, the people of Eberron wouldn't identify the "gods" of FR as gods. "

and

"The only thing that I feel IS overstated is the statement that the Progenitors DID create the creatures of Eberron being presented as absolute fact. The rest of the book presents the idea that the Progenitors may have been metaphorical, and that is still the default assumption. The primary point of the section was to concretely say that despite default 5E stating "All orcs are tied to Gruumsh" and "All Elves are children of Corellon" that this does NOT apply to Eberron—that the elves and orcs of Eberron are part of EBERRON and have no ties to the multiverse beyond it."

That is an interesting take.

 

[Reynard]

So your saying Keith is lying when he said:

"The idea is there that it COULD be possible, but it has absolutely ALWAYS been there: from the very beginning, Eberron had its own unique cosmology, but that entire cosmology was still part of the broader system of astral/ethereal/shadow."

and

"Likewise, the fact that this means that Cyric and Bane exist somewhere in the universe is utterly meaningless in Eberron. This doesn't mean that "Gods definitively exist", because as others have pointed out, the people of Eberron wouldn't identify the "gods" of FR as gods. "

and

"The only thing that I feel IS overstated is the statement that the Progenitors DID create the creatures of Eberron being presented as absolute fact. The rest of the book presents the idea that the Progenitors may have been metaphorical, and that is still the default assumption. The primary point of the section was to concretely say that despite default 5E stating "All orcs are tied to Gruumsh" and "All Elves are children of Corellon" that this does NOT apply to Eberron—that the elves and orcs of Eberron are part of EBERRON and have no ties to the multiverse beyond it."

That is an interesting take.

When were those quotes from, relative to the brief statement in the OG Eberron book pointing out that it was a different cosmology?

And framing it as "lying" is needlessly stirring the pot and trying to escalate a discussion into an argument.

 

[dave2008]

When were those quotes from, relative to the brief statement in the OG Eberron book pointing out that it was a different cosmology?

I linked to the statement by Keith on these forums (in a response to an earlier post by you I believe). He made that comment shortly after Rising from the Last War came out.

And framing it as "lying" is needlessly stirring the pot and trying to escalate a discussion into an argument.

Perhaps, but you are claiming Keith was saying it was a retcon when he explicitly said the opposite it you read his whole comment. So, if not lying, perhaps misrepresenting? IDK, what work works for you? I wasn't really trying to escalate it, just trying to point out that the creator is clearly saying Eberron was always part of the larger D&D multiverse.

I don't doubt Keith personally views it differently for his Eberron, but I think he is honestly explaining what the company line has always been. That of course tracks with how TSR described things since the beginning (all D&D games, even your home game, are in the same D&D multiverse). Not that I agree with that.