WotC Mike Mearls: "D&D Is Uncool Again"

In Mike Mearls' recent interview with Ben Riggs, he talks about how he feels that Dungeons & Dragons has had its moment, and is now uncool again. Mearls was one of the lead designers of D&D 5E and became the franchise's Creative Director in 2018. He worked at WotC until he was laid off in 2023. He is now EP of roleplaying games at Chaosium, the publisher of Call of Chulhu.

My theory is that when you look back at the OGL, the real impact of it is that it made D&D uncool again. D&D was cool, right? You had Joe Manganiello and people like that openly talking about playing D&D. D&D was something that was interesting, creative, fun, and different. And I think what the OGL did was take that concept—that Wizards and this idea of creativity that is inherent in the D&D brand because it's a roleplaying game, and I think those two things were sundered. And I don’t know if you can ever put them back together.

I think, essentially, it’s like that phrase: The Mandate of Heaven. I think fundamentally what happened was that Wizards has lost the Mandate of Heaven—and I don’t see them even trying to get it back.

What I find fascinating is that it was Charlie Hall who wrote that article. This is the same Charlie Hall who wrote glowing reviews of the 5.5 rulebooks. And then, at the same time, he’s now writing, "This is your chance because D&D seems to be stumbling." How do you square that? How do I go out and say, "Here are the two new Star Wars movies. They’re the best, the most amazing, the greatest Star Wars movies ever made. By the way, Star Wars has never been weaker. Now is the time for other sci-fi properties", like, to me that doesn’t make any sense! To me, it’s a context thing again.

Maybe this is the best Player’s Handbook ever written—but the vibes, the audience, the people playing these games—they don’t seem excited about it. We’re not seeing a groundswell of support and excitement. Where are the third-party products? That’s what I'd ask. Because that's what you’d think, "oh, there’s a gap", I mean remember before the OGL even came up, back when 3.0 launched, White Wolf had a monster book. There were multiple adventures at Gen Con. The license wasn’t even official yet, and there were already adventures showing up in stores. We're not seeing that, what’s ostensibly the new standard going forward? If anything, we’re seeing the opposite—creators are running in the opposite direction. I mean, that’s where I’m going.

And hey—to plug my Patreon—patreon.com/mikemearls (one word). This time last year, when I was looking at my post-Wizards options, I thought, "Well, maybe I could start doing 5E-compatible stuff." And now what I’m finding is…I just don’t want to. Like—it just seems boring. It’s like trying to start a hair metal band in 1992. Like—No, no, no. Everyone’s mopey and we're wearing flannel. It's Seattle and rain. It’s Nirvana now, man. It’s not like Poison. And that’s the vibe I get right now, yeah, Poison was still releasing albums in the ’90s. They were still selling hundreds of thousands or a million copies. But they didn’t have any of the energy. It's moved on. But what’s interesting to me is that roleplaying game culture is still there. And that’s what I find fascinating about gaming in general—especially TTRPGs. I don’t think we’ve ever had a period where TTRPGs were flourishing, and had a lot of energy and excitement around them, and D&D wasn’t on the upswing. Because I do think that’s what’s happening now. We’re in very strange waters where I think D&D is now uncool.

 

[TiQuinn]

I think he’s basically right that D&D is past its peak, and the OGL fiasco coupled with a wishy-washy sort-of-but-not-quite-edition change exacerbated the market’s already waning interest. But I think he’s over-stating the case a bit. While D&D’s market dominance may not be as overbearing as it was a couple years ago, I think it will remain the clear frontrunner, just by a lesser degree. And to those thinking the market will shrink along with WotC… I mean, probably a little, but knowing that a big part of the explosive growth was a demographic shift with more women getting into the hobby, I don’t think that’s going away.

Yeah, I think this is a much more gradual slide rather than one single event, though the OGL fiasco did have an impact particularly from the 3PP side.

 

[delericho]

We won't know the answer to that until 2034 at the earliest. If the numbers are ever publicly available of course.

If they announce a new edition in three years or, worse, cancel the game outright, I think we can make some assumptions.

 

[delericho]

This is factually wrong. There were two adventures at GenCon with the 3.0 launch. It took a bit for other things to be out.

Not too much of a bit, though - I picked up that WW monster book along with my PHB, and before the 3e MM was out.

 

[mamba]

Because of the 2024 dmg. Some of it is updating Greyhawk material to 2024 too.

yes, because of his 5.5, as I wrote. When you say updating material to 2024, is it 2024 specifically or just to 5e more broadly? Are you talking about the DMG lore changes or classes / subclasses etc where there is an actual difference between the two?

 

[AlViking]

If they announce a new edition in three years or, worse, cancel the game outright, I think we can make some assumptions.

That's kind of like saying you can know who wins the super bowl after the game has been played. If it happens of course we will know something is going on but your statement adds no support to your statements.

 

[mearls]

I think he’s basically right that D&D is past its peak, and the OGL fiasco coupled with a wishy-washy sort-of-but-not-quite-edition change exacerbated the market’s already waning interest. But I think he’s over-stating the case a bit. While D&D’s market dominance may not be as overbearing as it was a couple years ago, I think it will remain the clear frontrunner, just by a lesser degree. And to those thinking the market will shrink along with WotC… I mean, probably a little, but knowing that a big part of the explosive growth was a demographic shift with more women getting into the hobby, I don’t think that’s going away.

To be clear, I never expect D&D to ever fall behind another game. It's just too ubiquitous.

The point about shifting demographics is a great one, and highlights the fundamental shift we're seeing. The audience is very different, and far more diverse, than in the past. That gives me hope that we'll see a wider variety of games. We're seeing multi-million dollar kickstarters for non-D&D games. That simply didn't happen in the past.

In the past, D&D shrinking hurt everything because the stereotypical D&D player was the entirety of the hobby. These days, we have a much wider variety of people in the hobby and with that, far more ways that people want to engage with TTRPGs.

 

[darjr]

yes, because of his 5.5, as I wrote. When you say updating material to 2024, is it 2024 specifically or just to 5e more broadly? Are you talking about the DMG lore changes or classes / subclasses etc where there is an actual difference between the two?

I don’t have specifics at hand really. There are Greyhawk products there that I think are more focused on lore, either updating old lore to the new DMG or compiling a lot of lore leaning towards the old lore.

In that mix I think are at least one product, but I think more, that update old mechanics to 2024. (Old as in pre 5e).

Also I think I saw some adventures.

But it’s probably not near what Mike was looking for anyway, part of that is no one knew for sure that it was going to be open until after the DMG. So it’s kinda still early.

 

[dbolack]

Not too much of a bit, though - I picked up that WW monster book along with my PHB, and before the 3e MM was out.

True. But acting as though there was no gap before the 3E glut kicked in ( also? Are we now NOSTALGIC about the glut? ) is a bit disingenuous.

 

[darjr]

Does anyone see anyone playing that 50 million ks game?

I’ve seen people playing Draw Steel and Daggerheart, but not that.

Edit: 15 million.

 

[AlViking]

There was an article I read recently about how people feel a lack of what they called 3rd spaces. Places where people just go to hang out in person and socialize face to face with friends instead of just keeping track of people online. The idea is that people are social animals and as much as connecting via social media of some sort or another can help you keep in touch it's just not the same, some part of us will always need to be physically in person interacting with others.

What does that have to do with DnD or any other game where you gather around the dining room table? I think one of the reasons for the game's growth was that desire to create a 3rd space around the game table or to a degree even in virtual games. It's a reason to get together and socialize in real time and in ways we otherwise lack which is something that we humans crave. So I think any doom and gloom predictions are overstated and have been for a while now. The reasons for the game's growth are complex and largely unknowable so reasons for why or when when sales stabilize or fall will likely also be complex and largely unknowable. But just based on the cultural zeitgeist that has nothing to do with DnD being "cool"? I don't see a reason for a significant drop off in the near future because we still crave those 3rd spaces and it's something that DnD still provides. Then again my tea leaves are no more accurate than anyone else's.