WotC Mike Mearls: "D&D Is Uncool Again"

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In Mike Mearls' recent interview with Ben Riggs, he talks about how he feels that Dungeons & Dragons has had its moment, and is now uncool again. Mearls was one of the lead designers of D&D 5E and became the franchise's Creative Director in 2018. He worked at WotC until he was laid off in 2023. He is now EP of roleplaying games at Chaosium, the publisher of Call of Chulhu.

My theory is that when you look back at the OGL, the real impact of it is that it made D&D uncool again. D&D was cool, right? You had Joe Manganiello and people like that openly talking about playing D&D. D&D was something that was interesting, creative, fun, and different. And I think what the OGL did was take that concept—that Wizards and this idea of creativity that is inherent in the D&D brand because it's a roleplaying game, and I think those two things were sundered. And I don’t know if you can ever put them back together.

I think, essentially, it’s like that phrase: The Mandate of Heaven. I think fundamentally what happened was that Wizards has lost the Mandate of Heaven—and I don’t see them even trying to get it back.

What I find fascinating is that it was Charlie Hall who wrote that article. This is the same Charlie Hall who wrote glowing reviews of the 5.5 rulebooks. And then, at the same time, he’s now writing, "This is your chance because D&D seems to be stumbling." How do you square that? How do I go out and say, "Here are the two new Star Wars movies. They’re the best, the most amazing, the greatest Star Wars movies ever made. By the way, Star Wars has never been weaker. Now is the time for other sci-fi properties", like, to me that doesn’t make any sense! To me, it’s a context thing again.

Maybe this is the best Player’s Handbook ever written—but the vibes, the audience, the people playing these games—they don’t seem excited about it. We’re not seeing a groundswell of support and excitement. Where are the third-party products? That’s what I'd ask. Because that's what you’d think, "oh, there’s a gap", I mean remember before the OGL even came up, back when 3.0 launched, White Wolf had a monster book. There were multiple adventures at Gen Con. The license wasn’t even official yet, and there were already adventures showing up in stores. We're not seeing that, what’s ostensibly the new standard going forward? If anything, we’re seeing the opposite—creators are running in the opposite direction. I mean, that’s where I’m going.

And hey—to plug my Patreon—patreon.com/mikemearls (one word). This time last year, when I was looking at my post-Wizards options, I thought, "Well, maybe I could start doing 5E-compatible stuff." And now what I’m finding is…I just don’t want to. Like—it just seems boring. It’s like trying to start a hair metal band in 1992. Like—No, no, no. Everyone’s mopey and we're wearing flannel. It's Seattle and rain. It’s Nirvana now, man. It’s not like Poison. And that’s the vibe I get right now, yeah, Poison was still releasing albums in the ’90s. They were still selling hundreds of thousands or a million copies. But they didn’t have any of the energy. It's moved on. But what’s interesting to me is that roleplaying game culture is still there. And that’s what I find fascinating about gaming in general—especially TTRPGs. I don’t think we’ve ever had a period where TTRPGs were flourishing, and had a lot of energy and excitement around them, and D&D wasn’t on the upswing. Because I do think that’s what’s happening now. We’re in very strange waters where I think D&D is now uncool.
 

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No fad stays on top forever, and I think it is fair to say that the current popularity of D&D is a fad. I don't think that means that D&D is going away anytime soon, but I also don't think that is it going to maintain any sort of cultural prominence. Which, as far as I am concerned, is a good thing. One of the problems with "cultural prominence" is scrutiny, and with scrutiny you get "tanar'ri."
Hey I genuinely thought Tanar'ri and Baatezu and Yugoloths were an upgrade from Demons, Devils, and Daemons. To me, aged like, what, 12, 13, they seemed so much more "fantasy", and so much more evocative and cool than these lame mythological terms that like, boring older kids who were so nerdy that made me look genuinely cool liked.

I mean that was something - there was like, a palpable "cool level" distinction, at least in upper-middle class London, between "80s roleplayers" and "90s roleplayers" - the latter group seemingly contained a lot more "normal kids". I actually ran D&D for groups that involved people the jockiest jock in my school (he had a great time, it seemed, eventually that group fell apart due to an unrelated feud featuring some of the people in it).
 
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Hey I genuinely thought Tanar'ri and Baatezu and Yugoloths were an upgrade from Demons, Devils, and Daemons. To me, aged like, what, 12, 13, they seemed so much more "fantasy", and so much more evocative and cool than these lame mythological terms that like, boring older kids who were so nerdy that made me look genuinely cool liked.
Not really germane to the article, but I always found the whole Blood War conflict between, a like, really arbitrary distinction? Like they don't have more in common than they don't?
 

So... here's my take. Grab your grain of salt:

The "Critical Role Bubble" hasn't burst. Neither has the COVID bubble. People who were introduced to D&D in 2019 and 2020 are still playing the game in massive quantities. Some are doing their own homebrew worlds at their own tables, some are playing with what Mercer has put out. And some are also branching out to other games and systems. (Pathfinder 2e, particularly)

Some have stopped playing, of course. That always happens. Whether through lack of interest or being in a place in their life where they simply can't game. But for the most part? They're still here.

And I say this with some confidence because Roll20 exists and releases user totals. Specifically: Active Users.

Prior to Q4 2020 they had less than 8 million users. Hitting 8 million was a big milestone. And they achieved it, largely, through the CritRole/Covid surge. By April of 2020, 300 million Americans were in lockdown and starting to go stir crazy within a couple months. Online D&D was an easy way to reach out using Zoom or Discord calls and Roll20 for a map.

So you'd think the userbase would dip a bit after the lockdown ended. Well... It didn't.

In Q4 2021 they had 10 million active users. In Q4 2024 they had 15 million active users. The growth of the userbase has certainly slowed down a bit since 2020, but the population isn't dropping.

I would provide the values for the Foundry VTT, if I could... but they don't publicly release them. I can tell you they had a 52% population growth, year over year, between 2021 and 2022. And a 32% increase on unique licenses from 2023 to 2024. Indicating there's been slowdown in their market growth as they approach saturation.

Now how many of those Foundry users continue to use the Foundry, year over year? No way to know.

One thing is certain between both Roll20 and Foundry, though: D&D remains the gorilla in the boxing ring.

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It might not be as publicly talked about as it was in 2020/2021, and forum activity might fluctuate... But it's still out there, being played, in massive numbers.

Now, your FLGS is probably going to continue to see a downturn in people present in the store. Some conventions might move to smaller facilities based on how many people are willing, and able to afford, the trip. But D&D isn't dying, any time soon.

In one month, the D&D24 PHB sold more copies than the 2014 PHB did before 2016. They printed out three times as many copies for launch day as the 2014 PHB and still wound up ordering a second printing as they ran out.


Mind you: Most FLGS that were contacted reported still having copies on the shelves except for two stores in Florida when this article was posted. This indicates that the majority of sales of the D&D24 PHB were sold online through retailers like Amazon, rather than conventional in-store purchases. Which is representative of a general cultural change we've seen in how people buy things that aren't groceries.

The Medium is changing. But the game is still being played.
Yeah, and I think at least based on my own experience, there's a huge swathe of activity which can't be tracked by things like looking at Roll20, because the games involved are simple enough that most people just wouldn't use a VTT for them, even if playing online. Mothership, for example, or Spire. A few people will, but it was disproportionately lower relative to the total number of people playing those games.

But I'm not seeing RPG activity decreasing among people I know - just shifting a bit - mostly away from D&D. I feel like D&D might see some people shift back in like, 2-4 years, if they put out good stuff and it seems cool, but D&D itself doesn't have the halo it once did as a system.
 

Not really germane to the article, but I always found the whole Blood War conflict between, a like, really arbitrary distinction? Like they don't have more in common than they don't?
I thought that was the point though wasn't it?

Like, if they worked together, they'd be unstoppable, but because they embody Evil, they're all petty selfish wankers who can't fathom the idea of NOT murdering each other eternally until the end of time.

I genuinely, even at like, 13, thought that was the idea. Like, supernatural Evil is shortsighted and malicious and willing to do bad things for the sake of doing bad things, even if it's kind of self-destructive.
 

I don't think 2014 vs 2024 is the right way to look at it.

It isn't a new edition and people who own the 2014 books can and will be continuing to play with them. I don't see that as a diminishment of D&D.

10 years was the right amount of time for an update and I think they went about it the right way by keeping those with 2014 books in the same community.

As well, infinite growth just isn't possible and not maintaining it isn't a sign of a declining player base. It is also just that kind of a hobby. People already have enough books to play for years and years.

That they have managed to sell 2014 players the new books is a sign of the success of the update imo.

And this is why they have had a goal of leveraging the brand in other ways for some time.
 

I agree with this... the thing is it's great for sales for that company but it doesn't seem to really grow the player base, or diversify the hobby in a meaningful way.

I've kind of gone back and forth on this. When I say collector, I don't necessarily mean non-gamer. I think a lot of the people collecting books or buying them to read, are actual gamers. And I think many are probably still indirectly using the material at their table (they may buy a game, not run the actual game, but use flavor material from the books, setting material, adventure material, etc). When you think about it, most people only have one group to play with, and probably play just one RPG that everyone agrees on. So even if they want to play other RPGs, they may have still just play D&D and find ways to scratch that itch by reading other books and brining what they can to the table. Also I have noticed a big change personally in recent years with my own books. People seem much more open than they have in a long time to playing other RPGs now. There have always been people who played non-D&D games (I'm one of them, though I still also like D&D). But something feels very different now (it kind of reminds me of how things were when I was first playing in the late 80s and 90s)
 

I thought that was the point though wasn't it?

Like, if they worked together, they'd be unstoppable, but because they embody Evil, they're all petty selfish wankers who can't fathom the idea of NOT murdering each other eternally until the end of time.

I genuinely, even at like, 13, thought that was the idea. Like, supernatural Evil is shortsighted and malicious and willing to do bad things for the sake of doing bad things, even if it's kind of self-destructive.
I mean, I guess.

I would probably just have them working together and have the lawful evil organized ones operate differently than the chaotic ones. Sort of like the difference between Beebop and Rocksteady vs Foot Clan ninjas. Like they are different but working towards the same goal and just tripping over each other and causing issues with their different approaches.

Then again, maybe that's just me and I really want pizza now.
 

I mean, I guess.

I would probably just have them working together and have the lawful evil organized ones operate differently than the chaotic ones. Sort of like the difference between Beebop and Rocksteady vs Foot Clan ninjas. Like they are different but working towards the same goal and just tripping over each other and causing issues with their different approaches.

Then again, maybe that's just me and I really want pizza now.
Me too, thanks, and I was trying to stay away from so many carbs!

(Also the sidescrolling beat 'em up that came out last year or so for TMNT absolutely rules, and even has DLC for some really obscure characters from the cartoon)
 


Me too, thanks, and I was trying to stay away from so many carbs!

(Also the sidescrolling beat 'em up that came out last year or so for TMNT absolutely rules, and even has DLC for some really obscure characters from the cartoon)
Yeah, I played that. It was on Gamepass I think and it was pretty great! Big time Turtles in Times vibe.
 

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