WotC Mike Mearls: "D&D Is Uncool Again"

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In Mike Mearls' recent interview with Ben Riggs, he talks about how he feels that Dungeons & Dragons has had its moment, and is now uncool again. Mearls was one of the lead designers of D&D 5E and became the franchise's Creative Director in 2018. He worked at WotC until he was laid off in 2023. He is now EP of roleplaying games at Chaosium, the publisher of Call of Chulhu.

My theory is that when you look back at the OGL, the real impact of it is that it made D&D uncool again. D&D was cool, right? You had Joe Manganiello and people like that openly talking about playing D&D. D&D was something that was interesting, creative, fun, and different. And I think what the OGL did was take that concept—that Wizards and this idea of creativity that is inherent in the D&D brand because it's a roleplaying game, and I think those two things were sundered. And I don’t know if you can ever put them back together.

I think, essentially, it’s like that phrase: The Mandate of Heaven. I think fundamentally what happened was that Wizards has lost the Mandate of Heaven—and I don’t see them even trying to get it back.

What I find fascinating is that it was Charlie Hall who wrote that article. This is the same Charlie Hall who wrote glowing reviews of the 5.5 rulebooks. And then, at the same time, he’s now writing, "This is your chance because D&D seems to be stumbling." How do you square that? How do I go out and say, "Here are the two new Star Wars movies. They’re the best, the most amazing, the greatest Star Wars movies ever made. By the way, Star Wars has never been weaker. Now is the time for other sci-fi properties", like, to me that doesn’t make any sense! To me, it’s a context thing again.

Maybe this is the best Player’s Handbook ever written—but the vibes, the audience, the people playing these games—they don’t seem excited about it. We’re not seeing a groundswell of support and excitement. Where are the third-party products? That’s what I'd ask. Because that's what you’d think, "oh, there’s a gap", I mean remember before the OGL even came up, back when 3.0 launched, White Wolf had a monster book. There were multiple adventures at Gen Con. The license wasn’t even official yet, and there were already adventures showing up in stores. We're not seeing that, what’s ostensibly the new standard going forward? If anything, we’re seeing the opposite—creators are running in the opposite direction. I mean, that’s where I’m going.

And hey—to plug my Patreon—patreon.com/mikemearls (one word). This time last year, when I was looking at my post-Wizards options, I thought, "Well, maybe I could start doing 5E-compatible stuff." And now what I’m finding is…I just don’t want to. Like—it just seems boring. It’s like trying to start a hair metal band in 1992. Like—No, no, no. Everyone’s mopey and we're wearing flannel. It's Seattle and rain. It’s Nirvana now, man. It’s not like Poison. And that’s the vibe I get right now, yeah, Poison was still releasing albums in the ’90s. They were still selling hundreds of thousands or a million copies. But they didn’t have any of the energy. It's moved on. But what’s interesting to me is that roleplaying game culture is still there. And that’s what I find fascinating about gaming in general—especially TTRPGs. I don’t think we’ve ever had a period where TTRPGs were flourishing, and had a lot of energy and excitement around them, and D&D wasn’t on the upswing. Because I do think that’s what’s happening now. We’re in very strange waters where I think D&D is now uncool.
 

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One of the tricky things about the analysis of how D&D is going is that we're also in a particularly bad time of the economy. And things aren't getting easier - I have no idea how the Cosmere/Sanderson kickstarter will be affected by the tariffs, but I can't imagine that they'll make the job of completing it easier.

(So many kickstarters have run aground on the shores of sudden increases in prices - see shipping costs over the past decade!)

I wouldn't be surprised if there's a lot of "wait and see" in the industry at present. TTRPGs are hard. The 5E era is pretty much the only extended era where a TTRPG has done exceptionally. Mostly they fail slowly.

And despite the enthusiasm for the Cosmere kickstarter (and yeah, I'm a backer!), as an ongoing product line, how many people do you think would stick around for further products?

Cheers!
 

I keep seeing people state that OGL had no effect on people, but…
-The D&D movie tanked
-People where canceling their D&D Beyond accounts so fast that the unsubscribe page was taken down
 

Anecdotally, Mike's thesis is supported by my experience with my own three gaming groups and their wider circle.

Nobody (and I mean nobody) is excited for 5.5e , although quite a few of us have already bought the PHB and DMG. In fact it's more being treated as a matter of resignation ("oh well I suppose I better see what they've messed around with") than any anticipation. That's because 5e isn't broken. It's not perfect, but it hit the bullseye in terms of feeling like D&D whilst playing faster than spreadsheet edition (3e) and having more rational choices and streamlined systems than old faithful (1/2e). After 4e, it was exactly what the old crowd wanted and was able to pull in massive new crowds as well.

Where I think WOTC dropped the ball is that they've simply not produced any new material that my groups are interested in playing. They got all the mileage I think they can get out of retreads and reissues (Quests from the Infinite Staircase was just lazy at that point in 5E's lifecycle IMO, Keys from the Golden Vault only highlighted how ill-suited 5E is for Heists compared with other rule systems, Shadow of the Dragon Queen and Spelljammer were both lazy re-use of IP and just plain bad. Vecna's a too-late tie in and they missed the boat completely with tie-ins for Baldur's Gate 3 and the D&D movie).

Launching 5.5E with a focus on yet another dusty old setting is a major mistake, I think. In all honesty, who is going to be excited by playing a game in something called "the Flanaess on Oerik on Oerth"? Any 5E player interested in Greyhawk has probably already investigated it and it completely fails the tie in test with Baldur's Gate 3 - again, couldn't be less interesting if they tried. There was a chance to tie in with domains and bastions and so forth and hook into a streamlined version of Birthright, which might have been interesting, but nope.

What adventure am I going to pull off the shelf to entice my players to try the new rulebook? The last decent adventure they published was The Wild Beyond The Witchlight (which even if it wasn't to your taste at least was trying something new). I gather they're trying a new setting at some point next year, and more bits-and-bobs scenario books before those. They may be useful for DM's to split apart but they hardly make for a compelling splash launch for 5.5E.

Our groups are doing what the long-established ones have done cyclically over the decades - dropping 5E because there's nothing much compelling to play, in favour of other RPGs for a bit (Savage Worlds is a big hit, along with the various Free League games). The group composed of 5E-era D&D recruits is going down this path for the first time for them, and having a whale of a time discovering bennies and adventure cards and rules for chases and bases that actually make sense and are fun to play.

I'm sure we'll be back, but right now there's nothing tempting me to pick up any 5E or 5.5E D&D material to run or to find a group online to play. In short - yes, the cool has gone.
 

I keep seeing people state that OGL had no effect on people, but…
-The D&D movie tanked
First, it didn't "tank." It was an overly expensive production and did well, but didn't fully cover its theatrical costs, but which has apparently been extremely successful for Paramount on streaming, which is a big part of how movie studios plan these things nowadays.

Second, the notion that the OGL fiasco meaningfully impacted ticket sales is wild, to put it mildly.
 
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This is also why I think there's a difference between WotC getting litigious versus third party publishers, and wanting to go after a larger corporation over something like a 5e engine for a video game, or some hypothetical Star Wars RPG that hits it big. The former they would be able to outspend on legal fees, the latter they wouldn't and equally wouldn't want to end up in a court battle over copyright of the rules.
Pretty much. And that was the biggest value of the OGL.
 


I must say I’m confused about the take.

Firstly - and I don’t think this can be overstated - guys in their mid to late forties are not in a position to say whether anything is cool or not in society. And that’s me speaking as a guy in my mid forties.

Secondly. Have I been asleep or did we not just see a well received D&D movie (90+ Rotten Tomato’s for critics and audience). What about the AAA CRPG that is unashamedly and successfully D&D. What about Massive 2024 books sales. All in the last 2 years. Post OGL.

I feel like people don’t appreciate backwards compatibility (and not the Pathfinder backwards compatibility that didn’t really work) Every time someone releases a 5e product it is also supporting 2024. Even adjacent systems with have stuff to pinch. I just bought Dungeons of Drakkenheim to run with 2024. As written. No adjustment, or rather no more than I would adjust any pre-written adventure.

All that said. In truth cool is dependent on the circle you move in. It’s not a good word to describe success, popularity, or how good something is. It’s a word tied up with social status and I’m afraid to say that amongst some circles at the moment it’s cool to be anti-WotC/D&D 2024. I don’t really understand it to be honest. It seems the very essence of ‘biting the hand that feeds you.’

Now if you want to see something really Cool - as in keeping your… - see the skill in WFRP 4e which represents your ability to concentrate under fire, resist the horrors of the warhammer world and mental corruption. 😜
 
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I'd buy a book released with that tone, style, and target demographic, in a second.

Do you think Wizards would release it?
I think their behavior suggests they're of at least two minds about it.

They'll get the voice actors to do new content that doesn't cross the perceived lines the RPG does.

But actually driving people to the RPG (or peeling off fans of the RPG to buy books)?
 

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