WotC Mike Mearls: "D&D Is Uncool Again"

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In Mike Mearls' recent interview with Ben Riggs, he talks about how he feels that Dungeons & Dragons has had its moment, and is now uncool again. Mearls was one of the lead designers of D&D 5E and became the franchise's Creative Director in 2018. He worked at WotC until he was laid off in 2023. He is now EP of roleplaying games at Chaosium, the publisher of Call of Chulhu.

My theory is that when you look back at the OGL, the real impact of it is that it made D&D uncool again. D&D was cool, right? You had Joe Manganiello and people like that openly talking about playing D&D. D&D was something that was interesting, creative, fun, and different. And I think what the OGL did was take that concept—that Wizards and this idea of creativity that is inherent in the D&D brand because it's a roleplaying game, and I think those two things were sundered. And I don’t know if you can ever put them back together.

I think, essentially, it’s like that phrase: The Mandate of Heaven. I think fundamentally what happened was that Wizards has lost the Mandate of Heaven—and I don’t see them even trying to get it back.

What I find fascinating is that it was Charlie Hall who wrote that article. This is the same Charlie Hall who wrote glowing reviews of the 5.5 rulebooks. And then, at the same time, he’s now writing, "This is your chance because D&D seems to be stumbling." How do you square that? How do I go out and say, "Here are the two new Star Wars movies. They’re the best, the most amazing, the greatest Star Wars movies ever made. By the way, Star Wars has never been weaker. Now is the time for other sci-fi properties", like, to me that doesn’t make any sense! To me, it’s a context thing again.

Maybe this is the best Player’s Handbook ever written—but the vibes, the audience, the people playing these games—they don’t seem excited about it. We’re not seeing a groundswell of support and excitement. Where are the third-party products? That’s what I'd ask. Because that's what you’d think, "oh, there’s a gap", I mean remember before the OGL even came up, back when 3.0 launched, White Wolf had a monster book. There were multiple adventures at Gen Con. The license wasn’t even official yet, and there were already adventures showing up in stores. We're not seeing that, what’s ostensibly the new standard going forward? If anything, we’re seeing the opposite—creators are running in the opposite direction. I mean, that’s where I’m going.

And hey—to plug my Patreon—patreon.com/mikemearls (one word). This time last year, when I was looking at my post-Wizards options, I thought, "Well, maybe I could start doing 5E-compatible stuff." And now what I’m finding is…I just don’t want to. Like—it just seems boring. It’s like trying to start a hair metal band in 1992. Like—No, no, no. Everyone’s mopey and we're wearing flannel. It's Seattle and rain. It’s Nirvana now, man. It’s not like Poison. And that’s the vibe I get right now, yeah, Poison was still releasing albums in the ’90s. They were still selling hundreds of thousands or a million copies. But they didn’t have any of the energy. It's moved on. But what’s interesting to me is that roleplaying game culture is still there. And that’s what I find fascinating about gaming in general—especially TTRPGs. I don’t think we’ve ever had a period where TTRPGs were flourishing, and had a lot of energy and excitement around them, and D&D wasn’t on the upswing. Because I do think that’s what’s happening now. We’re in very strange waters where I think D&D is now uncool.
 

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You said it’s undebatable that D&D under WotC is “incredibly lame.” You weren’t merely presenting your opinion, you were claiming it was an objective fact that couldn’t be denied by anyone because of your anecdotal experience.

I can say from my own anecdotal experience that my players have thoroughly enjoyed the new rules and one of my players has been talking about how awesome the new Monster Manual looks for weeks. And he’s the player at my table that has a harder time getting engaged at the table.

Cool. It’s still incredibly lame. Hope you enjoy it though, it’s not for me. I’m not going to argue with a stranger on the internet about our differing opinions.
 

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D&D may no longer be cool, but it is still the lingua franca of the TTRPG world. I've never been cool, but I still like novelty. I've moved on from D&D to WFRP as the system for my main campaign. But I can always go back to D&D, join in on a D&D game, and it is still the easiest way to get people into the hobby. Fads come and go, die-hard TTRPG hobbyists will seek novelty in new systems, but D&D will endure. That is D&D's biggest strength. It doesn't need to be cool.

It'll be interesting to see if Mearles's observation is born out and another system unseats D&D as the top game. If that happens, congrats to the new top dog! But I feel pretty safe in predicting that its time on the throne will be short lived. Many new games will bubble to the top, burst, and be forgotten. A small few will capture a large and enthusiastic enough of a community to endure for the long term. But I predict that D&D will retain its role as the default and most commonly played TTRPG, whether cool or not, for decades to come. It is just too central to the TTRPG ecosystem for me to see that changing.
 

Yes and no. Evil feeding upon itself is a huge trope. Plus the way D&D outer planes work, each faction has deep seated philosophical differences on how to bring evil to the multiverse and wants to be the only/main evil. Those things make for a lot of bloodshed, so I liked the idea of the Blood War.
Me too. The Blood War helps explain why the upper and neutral planes aren’t beset by legions of demons and devils trying to conquer Arcadia or Mechanicus. If it was, then the 1st levels of those planes at least would feel love very different places. War itself is an evil and it means Avernus can embody that in a way you wouldn’t want in the seven heavens.
 
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It'll be interesting to see if Mearles's observation is born out and another system unseats D&D as the top game.
I have not listened- is Mearls saying that a different game will outperform DnD? I find that unlikely, I'd be surprised if he said that was his prediction.

Even at its lowest point, DnD has been untouchable in that respect.
 

I suspect that there are many reasons the D&D movie didn’t do so well. Suggesting that it was because of the OGL simply because of the timing probably doesn’t hold up for me. Changes to cinema habits post Covid, the rise of box office streaming, competition are all reasons why an otherwise good film didn’t do as well. Not to mention the fact that the previous three were some of the worst films ever made. The 1st and best of those three got 9% on RT. It’s not exactly a running start!

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I have not listened- is Mearls saying that a different game will outperform DnD? I find that unlikely, I'd be surprised if he said that was his prediction.

Even at its lowest point, DnD has been untouchable in that respect.
It's more a case that the same game with a different publisher (because IP law is really weak in protecting game rules) but a huge multimedia marketing budget could outperform D&D.
 

I guess there is a deeper question beneath all of this which possibly goes a long way to informing how people feel about WotC.

Is it fair that WotC try to increase monetization the D&D brand?

Pro’s

  • WotC bailed out TSR when they were at their lowest ebb saving the game from obscurity.
  • They paid $25m for ownership of the brand
  • They put all the R&D into development the game (whether you like the developments or not)
  • It has been openly admitted that Ryan Dancy got the OGL out before Hasbro knew what was going on. This strongly implies that it was not in the best interests of the company - but rather the hobby.
  • The hobby matters but it only exists at the scale that it does because of the investment by WotC
  • Scale matters because it means a supported system and lots of players for our games.
  • It’s going to cost a fortune to develop the tools to take online gaming into the future and WotC deserves some return on that investment.
  • If you want to play D&D for free you can in multiple ways. Most people don’t pay anything to play D&D because they borrow books or do it through a VTT with a compendium.
  • 3pp got access to the OGL for free they should stop complaining and be a bit more grateful.
  • The OGL was approved on the basis it would support the game not become its main competition.
  • Even the worst of Licences proposed by WotC are still better than the Lawfare under TSR.
  • Nobody has to buy these products. Get them if you like them, ignore them if you don’t.

Con’s

  • It’s the community that makes the game special not the company that owns it.
  • Ryan Dancy was future proofing the game by saving it from its owners.
  • Some 3pp work is of better quality than some official D&D products.
  • WotC gave out the Licence, people took risks on the back of it, they have a right to benefit from those risks unhindered. The fact that it was a good deal isn’t the 3pp’s fault.
  • D&D wouldn’t have been successful without 3pp building up the hype around the system.
  • Any money WotC makes ultimately is paid for by fans. It should be as cheap as possible.
  • WotC is rich, they can afford not to increase monetization of the brand.
  • WotC can’t be trusted, they don’t deserve the brand, better it fail and get picked up for cheap by an independent.

I think it’s possible to agree with some arguments on both sides here but I definitely see more posted on the cons on these boards and very rarely anything about the pro’s. I get that there is a whole Robin Hood vibe, David and Goliath, up the underdog etc but for me I just want WotC to keep making products to inspire me to play D&D I think they’ve invested enough money over the years to be entitled to make good money off that and if they do, they’re likely to make a few more products.
 
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You can't be cool by caring about being cool. Being cool is about confidence and sincerity, which is unlikely for a massive marketing campaign. Popular is a different matter.

The OGL fiasco was a major momentum killer for some people, as was the speculation and then reality 5E24, as well as the Spelljammer and Planescape books.

I was never a fan of 5E, but was willing to try 5E24 until All The Things Happened. D&D has heavily shaped my life since since 1992, but aside from lingering curiosity all that mess has pushed me to Pathfinder 2E of all things, and I can't see myself even giving D&D a chance again in the next decade, and after that what are the chances I'd even care?
 

"Coolness" isn't something I'd aspire to judge at my age, but in terms of the D&D market contracting, I've seen little evidence of it. My LFGS can't restock the D&D shelf fast enough. If there's a competitor to D&D in my vicinity, it's not other RPG's (which you have to visit an out-of-the-way boutique gaming store to buy any of around here, and that shelf has barely changed its contents in two years), it's board games. Shelves and shelves of £100+ board games, all reaching for my money. That said, I didn't replace D&D night with board games, I added board game night.
 

"Coolness" isn't something I'd aspire to judge at my age, but in terms of the D&D market contracting, I've seen little evidence of it. My LFGS can't restock the D&D shelf fast enough. If there's a competitor to D&D in my vicinity, it's not other RPG's (which you have to visit an out-of-the-way boutique gaming store to buy any of around here, and that shelf has barely changed its contents in two years), it's board games. Shelves and shelves of £100+ board games, all reaching for my money. That said, I didn't replace D&D night with board games, I added board game night.
Board game and TCGs, the three most successfully card games (MtG, YGO, Pokémon) all make tons of money.
Kinda coincidentally the companies behind those three games are all awful in their own way.
 

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