WotC Mike Mearls: "D&D Is Uncool Again"

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In Mike Mearls' recent interview with Ben Riggs, he talks about how he feels that Dungeons & Dragons has had its moment, and is now uncool again. Mearls was one of the lead designers of D&D 5E and became the franchise's Creative Director in 2018. He worked at WotC until he was laid off in 2023. He is now EP of roleplaying games at Chaosium, the publisher of Call of Chulhu.

My theory is that when you look back at the OGL, the real impact of it is that it made D&D uncool again. D&D was cool, right? You had Joe Manganiello and people like that openly talking about playing D&D. D&D was something that was interesting, creative, fun, and different. And I think what the OGL did was take that concept—that Wizards and this idea of creativity that is inherent in the D&D brand because it's a roleplaying game, and I think those two things were sundered. And I don’t know if you can ever put them back together.

I think, essentially, it’s like that phrase: The Mandate of Heaven. I think fundamentally what happened was that Wizards has lost the Mandate of Heaven—and I don’t see them even trying to get it back.

What I find fascinating is that it was Charlie Hall who wrote that article. This is the same Charlie Hall who wrote glowing reviews of the 5.5 rulebooks. And then, at the same time, he’s now writing, "This is your chance because D&D seems to be stumbling." How do you square that? How do I go out and say, "Here are the two new Star Wars movies. They’re the best, the most amazing, the greatest Star Wars movies ever made. By the way, Star Wars has never been weaker. Now is the time for other sci-fi properties", like, to me that doesn’t make any sense! To me, it’s a context thing again.

Maybe this is the best Player’s Handbook ever written—but the vibes, the audience, the people playing these games—they don’t seem excited about it. We’re not seeing a groundswell of support and excitement. Where are the third-party products? That’s what I'd ask. Because that's what you’d think, "oh, there’s a gap", I mean remember before the OGL even came up, back when 3.0 launched, White Wolf had a monster book. There were multiple adventures at Gen Con. The license wasn’t even official yet, and there were already adventures showing up in stores. We're not seeing that, what’s ostensibly the new standard going forward? If anything, we’re seeing the opposite—creators are running in the opposite direction. I mean, that’s where I’m going.

And hey—to plug my Patreon—patreon.com/mikemearls (one word). This time last year, when I was looking at my post-Wizards options, I thought, "Well, maybe I could start doing 5E-compatible stuff." And now what I’m finding is…I just don’t want to. Like—it just seems boring. It’s like trying to start a hair metal band in 1992. Like—No, no, no. Everyone’s mopey and we're wearing flannel. It's Seattle and rain. It’s Nirvana now, man. It’s not like Poison. And that’s the vibe I get right now, yeah, Poison was still releasing albums in the ’90s. They were still selling hundreds of thousands or a million copies. But they didn’t have any of the energy. It's moved on. But what’s interesting to me is that roleplaying game culture is still there. And that’s what I find fascinating about gaming in general—especially TTRPGs. I don’t think we’ve ever had a period where TTRPGs were flourishing, and had a lot of energy and excitement around them, and D&D wasn’t on the upswing. Because I do think that’s what’s happening now. We’re in very strange waters where I think D&D is now uncool.
 

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Would this potentially not be due to the limited tie in products, or do you believe that BG3 players are simply of a different demographic from 5e players all together?
There is certainly significant overlap of people who play both but, yes, I believe the audiences for TTRPGs and D&D are looking for different things. At bottom, the experiences are very different.

I believe that the overwhelming majority of BG3 players are well aware that D&D exists, and if it appealed to them, they’d already be playing. I don’t think there are many people who have a great time with BG3 and decide they need to take up TT D&D to keep their fun going; those players are likely to turn to other CRPGs.

Nor do I believe there are a lot of players who play both BG3 and D&D and want to play a sequel to the BG3 campaign in TT D&D.
 





Actually what moves have Hasbro made to garner a piece of the videogame market? My impression was that they were going after the steady revenue that a subscription model offers through DnD Beyond... which is not a videogame.
Moat of WotC activity at this point is video game design, in terms of manpower and budget: they have like 4 or 5 full scale video game development studio now.
 

Given Disney's poor track record with a number of it's movies recently, I would be concerned about any Executive meddling damaging the game.

IMO, they would not be the right company to take over D&D.
Poor track record???

Last year Disney broke records for the highest grossing animated movie of all time: Inside Out 2
and the highest grossing R-rated movie of all time: Deadpool 3

It was also the only movie studio to have a film crack the Billion dollar mark, which it did with 3 different films.
 

There is certainly significant overlap of people who play both but, yes, I believe the audiences for TTRPGs and D&D are looking for different things. At bottom, the experiences are very different.
I'm not sure. It seems there is a conflict between those that started playing it as a game and still play it as a game and those that use it as an engine to tell stories. Actual Plays really changed expectations. I'm not sure if people that get onboard from the AP actually worry that much about mechanics like someone that is really into the mechanic side.
 

I believe that the overwhelming majority of BG3 players are well aware that D&D exists, and if it appealed to them, they’d already be playing. I don’t think there are many people who have a great time with BG3 and decide they need to take up TT D&D to keep their fun going; those players are likely to turn to other CRPGs.

Nor do I believe there are a lot of players who play both BG3 and D&D and want to play a sequel to the BG3 campaign in TT D&D.
Oh wow someone with more authority than me saying what I’ve been saying and getting ignored on (or maybe wanting to say but just rolling my eyes and not saying) for so long. That DnD exists is not a secret to anyone playing BG3, did it maybe motivate a couple to get back into it, sure.

But on the latter point, a BG3 tie in hardcover, sure, like as a Kickstarter with some mini levels and stuff, it’d do a few million, maybe ten, to people who, like most other Kickstarter TTRPGs, will never get to run the game, because, there just isn’t a demand to play it. Everyone that played BG3 is sad about no DLC, wants that, not the TTRPG.
 

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