D&D General Chris Perkins and Stan! - previous D&D edition thoughts

A lot of the complaints against 4E feel silly today -- and I put myself in that category. I balked hard at 4E after trying it for les time than I should have given it. Then I went on to play Pathfinder for years -- never once managing to complete a campaign.
Yeah, all my complaints about 4E were ones of preference. I was a D&D player at the time, so waded through a lot of the discussions. For how terrible many of them were, I did learn a good deal about what I want out of RPGs from it. I too moved over to Pathfinder and stopped 4E discussion altogether since I stopped playing it. However, I went on over the next decade to completing almost all of the adventure paths put out in the PF1 era.
 

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A lot of the complaints against 4E feel silly today -- and I put myself in that category. I balked hard at 4E after trying it for les time than I should have given it. Then I went on to play Pathfinder for years -- never once managing to complete a campaign.
I’ve got nothing against 4e - it wasn’t for me when I read the PHB, I’ve never played it, and life has moved on. If there were great ideas that came out of it that fueled new design in other games and the current edition, that should be a feather in its fans’ caps, wouldn’t it?
 


There was a contingent of folks that latched onto any idea MMO was an influence and beat 4E like a redheaded step child with it. Seems silly today, but at the time MMOs were seen as the enemy of table top gaming. Some folks still have bad memories of those days.
Exactly.

It was treated as a truism--as a foundational, bedrock, "we hold this truth to be self-evident" thing--that anything whatsoever of video games ever, for any reason, being even remotely involved was proof positive that the thing in question was horrible, anti-D&D, the purified expression of "not only is this not D&D, it is actively hostile to anything D&D was or could be, and thus it deserves our hatred."

That was repeated. For years and years and years. Hell, in some places it still is repeated. The wounds have never had the chance to close, because they're constantly re-opened, intentionally so.

My theory for why this is the case is, basically, that video games were seen as soulless corporate-mandated trash, and thus could not possibly be D&D. MMOs were particularly reviled, because in being "Massively Multiplayer", such video games (already the enemy, that part was given!) must also be lowest common denominator, the worst, meanest, vilest form of pandering, AND that the gameplay experience thus produced must be nothing more than "spamming buttons" and "waiting for cooldowns", entirely and overtly devoid of any form of creativity, imagination, richness, or joy.

Hence, if you could "prove" any connection between 4e and video games, especially if you could prove that it was connected to the Great Sat--er, Great Adversary, namely World of Warcraft, then you had conclusively and objectively proved that 4e wasn't just flawed, wasn't even just bad, wasn't even just not deserving of the name "D&D", but was...well, as I said above, actively hostile to anything D&D was and could be, and thus deserved to be hated by anyone who loved anything at all about D&D.

Part of the reason I make this argument is that you saw exactly the same argument made against 3e before, but because MMOs were still in their relative infancy in 2000, as EQ had only launched the year before, it was another Blizzard property that got the comparisons: Diablo. The complaints are nearly identical in structure, differing only in which game is invoked. That, to me, indicates that the real meaning of the argument was never about any actual relationship between the complained-about edition and the video game used to vilify it; it was about finding a way to prove the prejudice against that edition as the only thing a true fan of D&D could conscience.

And with 4e? It worked. That single argument was one of the greatest successes of "the" Edition War. It turned almost everyone I knew who played 3e against 4e. Even the people who played and enjoyed World of Warcraft.

---

As for the interview, I haven't watched the thing. But I am inclined to take @Joshua Randall's interpretation with a grain of salt. As much as it frustrates me to hear the constant, never-ending, insistent comparisons between 4e and anything programmed for electronic computer, the fact is, they'd have been fools not to at least think about it. I would need to hear Perkins' actual words to know for sure, but I don't think he would be the type to disparage 4e as merely a soulless corporate product shat out for mass-market consumption. He did too many good things in, with, and for 4e for that, not least of which is Iomandra.

It would be very, very, very nice if we could actually have a discussion about "What has D&D learned/what could it learn from video games?", including 4e. I don't think it's possible. There is far, far too much temptation for people with an agenda to torpedo the discussion by crossing that line, invoking the "well any trace of video games is AN EVIL VIRUS OF SATAN!!@#!@#!@!!~!" More seriously, it's far too tempting for folks to threadcrap such a discussion with something like:
"Nothing, because obviously there's nothing to learn"
"Well, the only edition that did failed"
"Everything it's learned from video games was bad"
"God I hope it hasn't learned anything from video games, that would ruin it"
"Video games have only stolen from D&D, so there's nothing there to learn that D&D doesn't already know"
etc., etc.
 
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A lot of the complaints against 4E feel silly today -- and I put myself in that category. I balked hard at 4E after trying it for les time than I should have given it. Then I went on to play Pathfinder for years -- never once managing to complete a campaign.
Somewhat ironically, the 4e model would be much easier to display and market with the tools currently present on D&D Beyond.
 


"4E was partially meant to appeal to video gamers" is a fair statement by me. Just don't start calling it "tabletop World of Warcraft" and I'm mostly good.
Especially considering that even in 2008, I'm sure something like 90% of active D&D players were also "video gamers". They weren't exactly pursuing an "out with the old, in with the new" approach in those terms.
 

I agree that 5E feels like 2E -- or, more specifically, 5E feels like I remember 2E feeling like. That is an important distinction.
Funny, I haven't played too much 5e, although I'm in two games of it right now. It feels exactly like playing 3e to me, except that a bunch of stuff is weird and doesn't work quite right.

Thankfully I’ve never wanted to be part of a target market or ever felt that buying anything put out by D&D’s publisher was necessary (or even conducive!) to playing D&D, except maybe for one person to have a PHB or starter set (any edition).

That was true for me before the 3e era ended. I bought plenty of 3e stuff, but I didn't care about new product for it long before it actually ended (although, ironically I'm going and filling in a few holes in my collection lately), bought exactly zero 4e books, although I don't dislike the idea of it nearly as much as a lot of people did, and I've bought (reluctantly) exactly one 5e product, a used PHB. Being disconnected from the current owner of the game has been true for me for the better part of twenty years. But I always had a weird love/hate relationship with D&D per se; I never thought it provided the promise of what the hobby could do. My Holy Grail search for the perfect game only ended when I kitbashed/designed my own.

And now, of course, because it's just my Holy Grail and not anyone else's, I'm not currently using it for anything.
 

Yeah, all my complaints about 4E were ones of preference. I was a D&D player at the time, so waded through a lot of the discussions. For how terrible many of them were, I did learn a good deal about what I want out of RPGs from it. I too moved over to Pathfinder and stopped 4E discussion altogether since I stopped playing it. However, I went on over the next decade to completing almost all of the adventure paths put out in the PF1 era.
Pretty much the same with me. 4E was the beginning of the end of my support of D&D as I didnt like how 4E played and moved with Paizo over to their continued support of 3.5 and then Pathfinder proper.

I've been using PF for my Fantasy RPG needs ever since.

Oddly enough though I really, REALLY like how 4E was used with the various boardgames (CASTLE RAVENLOFT, WRATH OF ASHARDALON, THE LEGEND OF DRIZZT) at the time and still have those games! I played them with my son and his friends during that time and had a BLAST.
 

Pretty much the same with me. 4E was the beginning of the end of my support of D&D as I didnt like how 4E played and moved with Paizo over to their continued support of 3.5 and then Pathfinder proper.
That's interesting. The similarities are actually pretty cosmetic, IMO. 3.x was a much deeper game with a significantly different design ethos and intended play loop (outside of "adventure").
 

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