D&D 5E 2024 D&D is 2014 D&D with 4E sprinkled on top

[EzekielRaiden]

I don't really get the negative reaction towards Damage On A Miss. If we can accept that Hit Points are a weird amalgamation of luck, stamina, and actual physicality, than grazing attacks make perfect sense. Luck can't last forever, successfully dodging is still draining on your stamina, etc.

That, unfortunately, is the thing some people cannot accept.

While a rare few people really do have a convince-able position on this...I find that the vast majority of people fall into two camps. "HP must be physically-rooted", often (semi-derogatorily) called "Meat Points" fans, and "HP cannot be solely physically-rooted", sometimes called "Luck Points" or various other things. For a less prejudicial term for each, I'll say Physicalists and Amalgamists; the Physicalist position is that every single point of HP is a physical something in a given entity, while Amalgamists see it as a non-specific mix of physical and non-physical things, where no individual hit point can be said to be any particular thing in absolute.

I have yet to meet a single Physicalist who is even remotely interested in finding common ground--mostly because the position is almost entirely defined by rejecting the possibility of anything but a physical root for every single hit point. I have seen a handful of people who, for lack of a better term, try to split the difference. Someone here on ENWorld (I fear I forget whom) basically argued that there had to be some inherent kernel that corresponded to the Physicalist position, but that all other parts were perfectly compatible with the Amalgamist position. They were a surprising and refreshing break from what I usually see from folks who hold a Physicalist position, since they were genuinely participating to discern, not to somehow prove that no, the Amalgamist position is simply incorrect, so everyone should be a Physicalist like them.

 

[payn]

I will note its interesting how folks flip on DoaM. The folks who like 4E because its gamist, suddenly become more abstract in their reasoning why DoaM is happening, and folks that typically dont like the naked gamist nature of 4E, suddenly embrace a gamist position on a miss being a miss.

 

[aco175]

I could see doing something with weapon mastery to make it more of a 4e at-will power. Combine it with the bonus action to take care of the threads saying combat is slow due to the bonus action needing to be used each turn and the threads of how fighter still suck.

 

[Micah Sweet]

I mean, that's...literally what it is though.

Why are people so upset about something simply because it has a name that offends them? If literally nothing--nothing whatsoever--about its fluff or crunch changes in any way...except the name...why should it matter?

This is literally part of the absurd hatred criticized, even lambasted, by Shakespeare in Romeo and Juliet:

"'Tis but thy name that is my enemy;
Thou art thyself, though not a Montague.
What's Montague? It is nor hand, nor foot,
Nor arm, nor face, nor any other part
Belonging to a man. O, be some other name!
What's in a name? That which we call a rose
By any other name would smell as sweet; ..."

To kick up a fuss because it is nicknamed by fans as "damage on a miss" when...it is literally damage you deal...even though you've not hit their AC...but to accept with open arms if it were nicknamed, say, "automatic damage"...I just don't understand it. It's openly irrational, not even bothering to hide behind subjectivity.

"Not hit" and "missed" are synonyms by most people's standards. And I'm not saying that this is the sole problem with the concept for everybody. I'm not a huge fan of any ability that can't fail to have an effect, for example.

 

[Aldarc]

"Not hit" and "missed" are synonyms by most people's standards. And I'm not saying that this is the sole problem with the concept for everybody. I'm not a huge fan of any ability that can't fail to have an effect, for example.

Does that include fireballs?

 

[EzekielRaiden]

I think that the 2e in 5e is more about vibe than mechanics, particularly in regards to GM empowerment and the role of the GM as storyteller.

Well, all I can say on that front is, "vibes" is something not really...part of the game? Vibes can be anything, and you can change the vibes just by...saying different words or applying a different (literal or metaphorical) coat of paint.

The GM Empowerment stuff, that at least has specific, tangible effects. I just don't consider them to be good effects.

 

[Micah Sweet]

That, unfortunately, is the thing some people cannot accept.

While a rare few people really do have a convince-able position on this...I find that the vast majority of people fall into two camps. "HP must be physically-rooted", often (semi-derogatorily) called "Meat Points" fans, and "HP cannot be solely physically-rooted", sometimes called "Luck Points" or various other things. For a less prejudicial term for each, I'll say Physicalists and Amalgamists; the Physicalist position is that every single point of HP is a physical something in a given entity, while Amalgamists see it as a non-specific mix of physical and non-physical things, where no individual hit point can be said to be any particular thing in absolute.

I have yet to meet a single Physicalist who is even remotely interested in finding common ground--mostly because the position is almost entirely defined by rejecting the possibility of anything but a physical root for every single hit point. I have seen a handful of people who, for lack of a better term, try to split the difference. Someone here on ENWorld (I fear I forget whom) basically argued that there had to be some inherent kernel that corresponded to the Physicalist position, but that all other parts were perfectly compatible with the Amalgamist position. They were a surprising and refreshing break from what I usually see from folks who hold a Physicalist position, since they were genuinely participating to discern, not to somehow prove that no, the Amalgamist position is simply incorrect, so everyone should be a Physicalist like them.

I agree with the person whose name you can't remember. There are circumstances where a physical hit is absolutely necessary (poison is the obvious example, but most attacks that have an effect other than hit point loss on a success need to actually hit you in the fiction), but generally speaking, IMO the only hit that really matters is the one that brings you to zero. It what happens after that where things get interesting.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Does that include fireballs?

If the spell doesn't work or detonates outside of range of the target, sure. But I will walk back my statement in regards to blasts, which almost always do something.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Well, all I can say on that front is, "vibes" is something not really...part of the game? Vibes can be anything, and you can change the vibes just by...saying different words or applying a different (literal or metaphorical) coat of paint.

The GM Empowerment stuff, that at least has specific, tangible effects. I just don't consider them to be good effects.

Vibes are definitely part of design, and a huge part of why we play one game or a different one.

 

[Aldarc]

If the spell doesn't work or detonates outside of range of the target, sure. But I will walk back my statement in regards to blasts, which almost always do something.

And so do some abilities in 4E.