Spoilers Star Trek: Deep Space Nine

[jian]

A true bromance for the ages.

I think it’s very noticeable that Miles responds emotionally to Julian much more than he responds to Keiko, and even says he wishes Keiko was more like Julian. Heck, Molly says she doesn’t believe they’re really moving to Earth because Julian’s not coming. That little girl knew what’s what.

 

[overgeeked]

My absolute favorite Star Trek show. Sisko is the best captain. Phenomenal cast and crew. I’ve been thinking about a re-watch, too. Might have to now.

 

[overgeeked]

We're rewatching DS9 right now. The strength of the show to me is definitely the characters. Some of the weaker episodes hold up better because of the strong characters.

Just recently saw the tribble episode which is so delightful.

I'm surprised how well Jake and Nog are handled. They acted like teens without being super annoying and develop into solid young adults. I'm always glad to see them. And Rom gaining some confidence and breaking away from Quark is an arc that the writers showed patience with.

Yes, there are boring episodes, stupid episodes and ridiculous ones. That's Star Trek. I like it a lot more than Next Generation, which didn't really let characters grow, besides Picard and Data.

I love the ferengi-centered episodes. Absolute peak DS9. Rom unionizing Quark’s bar. Iggy Pop as a guest star. Nog’s progression and his speech to Sisko about his father. Nog’s arc. Such great stuff.

 

[overgeeked]

When a LGBTQ friend pointed out to me that Garak was 'obviously' attracted to Bashir their interactions hit in a completely different way for me. Even better, from a story perspective, as it gave an explanation to a lot of behaviour.

EDIT - I put obviously in quotes because to me, a straight white male, it just went right over my head.

Garak is one of the best of the bunch. In a show filled with great character like DS9 that’s saying something.

 

[Smackpixi]

I love the ferengi-centered episodes. Absolute peak DS9.

The Ferengi were why I just couldn’t stand the show, but will agree they are peak DS9 and why so many of the episodes are unwatchable. Not even that they’re so irritating, but because they’re so obligate irritating. A perfect example of an “other”in TNG where it’s always the Federation that has to understand “them”, rather than “them” having even the slightest awareness of other perspectives. I’m sure over the course of those seasons Ferengi characters develop an awareness of perspectives other than their own for some purpose other than to manipulate them for their own goals. And of sure, one can say that non-Ferengi are actually the same, focused on their goals, rather than Ferengi goals and so just as unreasonable. But, that would take a lot of mental gymnastics.

DS9 is such an unwatchable show for me because the issue of dealing with irrationally unreasonable people is like every episode. And it really foregrounds the racism of Star Trek, all these cultures/races/species whose members are so unable to focus on task at hand but instead stuck in their obligate ways. And you have a cool reasonable person like Sisko dealing with a huge menagerie of forking short shows who can’t be anything but what they are.

 

[Zardnaar]

Mire character driven than the other Trek. Entire cast was great.

 

[jian]

The Ferengi were why I just couldn’t stand the show, but will agree they are peak DS9 and why so many of the episodes are unwatchable. Not even that they’re so irritating, but because they’re so obligate irritating. A perfect example of an “other”in TNG where it’s always the Federation that has to understand “them”, rather than “them” having even the slightest awareness of other perspectives. I’m sure over the course of those seasons Ferengi characters develop an awareness of perspectives other than their own for some purpose other than to manipulate them for their own goals. And of sure, one can say that non-Ferengi are actually the same, focused on their goals, rather than Ferengi goals and so just as unreasonable. But, that would take a lot of mental gymnastics.

DS9 is such an unwatchable show for me because the issue of dealing with irrationally unreasonable people is like every episode. And it really foregrounds the racism of Star Trek, all these cultures/races/species whose members are so unable to focus on task at hand but instead stuck in their obligate ways. And you have a cool reasonable person like Sisko dealing with a huge menagerie of forking short shows who can’t be anything but what they are.

I’d say that’s all not very true, especially about the Ferengi characters. Quark is closest to the above but he actually understands humans and the Federation very well, better as time goes on, and that’s not surprising - he’s an adaptable and intelligent businessman whose job is dealing with dozens of other cultures. There are plenty of episodes where Quark is 100% Ferengi and 100% magnificent (The House of Quark is an obvious example). Some of this was at the insistence of Armin Shimerman, who was ashamed of the way he’d portrayed Ferengi characters in the past and was determined that Quark would not be comic relief.

Quark’s main hangup is that he has an unreasonable and sentimental affection for traditional Ferengi culture (which is actually very reminiscent of how first generation immigrants can be, being more traditional than those who never emigrated) which occasionally makes him act like an idiot. His brother and nephew, having less attachment to those ideas, learn from their environment and friends to become better people and better Ferengi - Rom ends up as Grand Nagus and Nog becomes the first Ferengi in Starfleet, but still every inch a Ferengi. Some other Ferengi characters (say hello, Brunt) are @$$holes but it’s not because they’re Ferengi, but because they’re @$$holes.

The same is roughly true of both the Cardassians and Klingons portrayed in DS9. Garak is many things, including a recent immigrant who learns from the other cultures around him, and he too understands other cultures (including the Federation) very well indeed. He changes a great deal, enough to become a leader of his nation. Dukat, similarly, understands other cultures just fine but he’s a fascist monster through and through, the hero of his own saga; he’s evil because of who he is, not because he’s Cardassian. Worf finally gets to show how he belongs in two worlds but has to choose neither and is, in fact, a better Klingon than most (and is recognised as such) as well as recognising that it must be Klingons who change the empire by no longer tolerating its hypocrisy.

And thus we come to the final invasive culture, the Federation. DS9’s Federation characters are immigrants and visitors too, and they know it, and they too learn and change as a result of engaging with those around them. They’re certainly not the most reasonable people about - they make plenty of mistakes about people, and Sisko is famously far from perfectly reasonable; but he is a good leader who’s aware of his responsibilities, and generally discharges them effectively.

As an immigrant who’s lived in four countries (South Korea, the U.K., New Zealand, and Canada) and whose cultural identity is kind of all over the place (mostly English but also quite Korean) I appreciate the sensitive and nuanced approach DS9 takes towards multiculturalism and the immigrant experience, and honestly I’m not sure it could be made that way now - by Americans, at least.

 

[Zardnaar]

I’d say that’s all not very true, especially about the Ferengi characters. Quark is closest to the above but he actually understands humans and the Federation very well, better as time goes on, and that’s not surprising - he’s an adaptable and intelligent businessman whose job is dealing with dozens of other cultures. There are plenty of episodes where Quark is 100% Ferengi and 100% magnificent (The House of Quark is an obvious example). Some of this was at the insistence of Armin Shimerman, who was ashamed of the way he’d portrayed Ferengi characters in the past and was determined that Quark would not be comic relief.

Quark’s main hangup is that he has an unreasonable and sentimental affection for traditional Ferengi culture (which is actually very reminiscent of how first generation immigrants can be, being more traditional than those who never emigrated) which occasionally makes him act like an idiot. His brother and nephew, having less attachment to those ideas, learn from their environment and friends to become better people and better Ferengi - Rom ends up as Grand Nagus and Nog becomes the first Ferengi in Starfleet, but still every inch a Ferengi. Some other Ferengi characters (say hello, Brunt) are @$$holes but it’s not because they’re Ferengi, but because they’re @$$holes.

The same is roughly true of both the Cardassians and Klingons portrayed in DS9. Garak is many things, including a recent immigrant who learns from the other cultures around him, and he too understands other cultures (including the Federation) very well indeed. He changes a great deal, enough to become a leader of his nation. Dukat, similarly, understands other cultures just fine but he’s a fascist monster through and through, the hero of his own saga; he’s evil because of who he is, not because he’s Cardassian. Worf finally gets to show how he belongs in two worlds but has to choose neither and is, in fact, a better Klingon than most (and is recognised as such) as well as recognising that it must be Klingons who change the empire by no longer tolerating its hypocrisy.

And thus we come to the final invasive culture, the Federation. DS9’s Federation characters are immigrants and visitors too, and they know it, and they too learn and change as a result of engaging with those around them. They’re certainly not the most reasonable people about - they make plenty of mistakes about people, and Sisko is famously far from perfectly reasonable; but he is a good leader who’s aware of his responsibilities, and generally discharges them effectively.

As an immigrant who’s lived in four countries (South Korea, the U.K., New Zealand, and Canada) and whose cultural identity is kind of all over the place (mostly English but also quite Korean) I appreciate the sensitive and nuanced approach DS9 takes towards multiculturalism and the immigrant experience, and honestly I’m not sure it could be made that way now - by Americans, at least.

What part of NZ?

 

[Smackpixi]

I’m gonna love that response, because it’s the most thorough I’ve ever received. But I dispute..

Sisko is famously far from perfectly reasonable

He is, from what I’ve watched, the reasonable person on the show, like Picard, like, Janeway, or Chakotay, the center of the show relied on to not be a forking weirdo and represent the reasonable viewer. The avatar dealing with all the other inflexible. And yes you’re right, the Federation is of the inflexible parties on that show.

I feel like your post is a long description of how all the obligate unreasonable people develop over the course of the show. I don’t deny that they do, and probably great for someone with a lot of patience. But doesn’t obscure the fact getting any one of them over themselves and on board with dealing with the emergency at hand was on Sisko or whoever and not something they’d be up for w/o some accommodations. They’re all a-holes. Ferengi chief among them and in every episode.

My point remains, it’s a shorts show of watching annoying people most episodes.

 

[Staffan]

I love the ferengi-centered episodes. Absolute peak DS9. Rom unionizing Quark’s bar. Iggy Pop as a guest star. Nog’s progression and his speech to Sisko about his father. Nog’s arc. Such great stuff.

Also, one of the most badass lines in all of Trek: