D&D 5E 2024 D&D is 2014 D&D with 4E sprinkled on top

[GobHag]

It's not muddying up anything.

These terms (Supernatural, Transmundane, Magic) all amount to the same thing in 5.0/5.5. The system is not nearly granular enough.

If we were talking about PF1, we could have a debate about this, and 4e, but thats not the reality of the world we live in.

5.0 is (unsatisfying for both sides!) the 'lets try and just appease everyone a little' edition, but if its not actually mundane, blood and sinews, then it is in fact, some kind of magical/fantastical/whatever.

In no world is a javelin toss of 1600 meters, anything but magic.

A javelin throw in general is magic, I mean a bunch of wet strings pulling on living rocks to throw a sharp piece of metal? Magic!

 

[TwoSix]

It's not muddying up anything.

These terms (Supernatural, Transmundane, Magic) all amount to the same thing in 5.0/5.5. The system is not nearly granular enough.

If we were talking about PF1, we could have a debate about this, and 4e, but thats not the reality of the world we live in.

5.0 is (unsatisfying for both sides!) the 'lets try and just appease everyone a little' edition, but if its not actually mundane, blood and sinews, then it is in fact, some kind of magical/fantastical/whatever.

In no world is a javelin toss of 1600 meters, anything but magic.

If you think we're talking about a particular system, rather than a framework for understanding fantasy gaming and fantasy tropes more broadly, then we aren't in the same conversation.

 

[Scribe]

rather than a framework for understanding fantasy gaming and fantasy tropes more broadly

I mean, no we were talking 5.0/5.5.

If you want to get into broad Fantasy tropes?

I had the stories read to me when I was young. I read a lot of the classics.

I knew, 'thats not possible' and it was not just 'this guy is super skilled and awesome wowee I wish I was that special'.

It was 'thats not possible' ergo 'its magic'. If we boil things down, the tales and legends and myths? "How could that be done!?" the child cried. "Its magic my son."

Now, if we NEED to somehow break it out into distinct little grid filling, sure, again PF1 did that.

But there's normal/mundane, and there is 'everything else beyond that'.

 

[GobHag]

Like being able to walk! Genuinely magical!

 

[Joshua Randall]

My desire is that it should be possible to play a character who does not use any magic whatsoever and that character should be fully playable up to high levels while being properly balanced with casters.

That system already exists and is what is being "sprinkled" upon 5e.

It is called 4e.

HOWEVER.

If you (generic you, not you specifically MuhVerisimilitude) object that literally anything transmundane is "magic", then 4e is going to be extremely disappointing. Because a 30th level 4e fighter can do TONS AND TONS of transmundate things. In a way that fans of 4e find cool and fun (and, yes, balanced with the 30th level 4e wizard).

 

[Joshua Randall]

Well, had I my druthers: [snip D&D.ER edition!]

Shut up and build this game and then TAKE MY MONEY!

 

[Micah Sweet]

If you define the setting as such that 99.9999% of people can't cleave mountains simply by training, but there are a select few people who can for reasons that simply aren't understood, shouldn't that be sufficient?

Some people are just born special.

I'd rather understand what those reasons are for that tiny percentage, to be honest.

 

[Micah Sweet]

His point was that the initial claim is what is absurd. That by watering down "magic" that far, you've debased the term until it can be applied to almost anything now. Far from keeping magic magical, you've trivialized it so that nearly anything is "magic", no matter how absurd that becomes.

Anything that goes beyond real life ability. Now I would be willing to allow so-called "action movie physics" to still be considered mundane, but anything beyond, say, True Lies for example, is supernatural to my mind, and thus should have some kind of specific explanation. All of that is what setting logic means.

 

[Micah Sweet]

I'm having a difficult time replying to these because of the split quotes.


In my opinion it is essential that martials are also competent. My problem is with the way this is currently handled (they're not) and also that a lot of people seem to want martials to suck.

I suspect we are talking past each other.

My desire is that it should be possible to play a character who does not use any magic whatsoever and that character should be fully playable up to high levels while being properly balanced with casters.


Exactly. This is a highly frustrating problem.



Accurate.

What do you mean by "magic" here? If you're just talking about spells I agree that can absolutely be done.

 

[MuhVerisimilitude]

What do you mean by "magic" here? If you're just talking about spells I agree that can absolutely be done.

I mean purely non-magical as in no spells and nada magic, but that isn't really a requirement, personally. I'd be fine with it as long as they're not spells, but to me it also does not need to involve magic whatsoever. I personally don't care.

I'm talking about things like a fighter so good at intimidating people that they become frightened and be forced to run away.

A rogue who can lockpick a door instantly and with a 100% success rate.

Etc. etc.

Indicators of extreme skill.