I think it's not killer dm for the powers of the universe to come after a wizard who casts unlimited simalcrum spells. But we can agree to disagree on that. I'm a fan of in game consequences for in game actions. Having a RAW discussion while pretending that the game doesn't have campaign settings with Gods, Religions, magical orders and other groups and powers of the universe that might react to such things is a little silly. The game has always counted on the GM to keep it under control. There have always been typo's and mistakes and abuses. If you don't want your DM balancing the game go play WOW
D&D (2024) Martial/Caster fix.
- Thread starter mellored
- Start date
ezo
Hero
Or when WotC releases a new edition/update they can fix errors that have been pointed out for years?
No DM intervention needed then.
ezo
Hero
Did you not read my post?
If you use wish, you have to rest to get it back before you can do the loop, and then the simulacrums will have wish, too.
ezo
Hero
What do you mean? I have to pay for the first one. That's it. As long as the last SIM doesn't get destroyed, it is the one that starts up the loop again. I just have to keep that one "safe" to avoid the cost a second time (or more).
No, but a player can literally have an army of "half-HP" powerful wizards running around doing his bidding. Again, it is only if the DM destroys the last one I have to pay the cost again.
Yep. Which is why any sane DM stops the abuse before it begins. Too bad WotC didn't in 2024--why they chose not to I have no idea.
What I have found is MMDV (My Mileage Does Vary)
I just finished a 20th level campaign were my PC had over 400,000 gp at games end, but with the same group we also played an adventure where we had to pool our resources to have a single diamond on hand for revivify and my Drow Fighter-Warlock was still wearing the Chainmail she started the game with at 20th level. So I think more than anything it depends on the specific campaign.
Clint_L
Legend
I agree - this seems like something that might get the attention of a lot of greedy adventurers, for example!
Yaarel
🇮🇱 🇺🇦 He-Mage
AEDU can be awkward. One of the most difficult aspects of 4e was restricting each of these categories to specific levels. It made designing for each level a heading, and 4e players became dependent on official designs for balance.
It is better to just design a spell for whatever it is, then afterward decide which slot it feels most balanced in. Of course, this requires the spell list itself to calibrate well, so that every spell in a slot really is moreorless equally desirably with any other spell in the same slot.
Micah Sweet
Level Up & OSR Enthusiast
Why should WotC bother? Just ban or change the spell if you don't like it.Yep, they are. If they are part of a statblock, they are included. If I make a simulacrum of archmage, it has spellcasting. If I make a simulacrum of a PC with spellcasting (which includes prepared spells) it has those.
And of course you are free to do so.
Correct. Once is all I need.
How about 100 of them? 10000 of them? Because that is what this loop can do.
Umm... I am not casting wish, the simulacrums are.
Your world, do what you want... but none of that is RAW or addresses an abuse that is RAW-- which is sort of the point.
Luckily, of course there is. Which is why any sane DM (IMO) would not allow this RAW abuse.
Well, it isn't the job of the DM to kill off a PC (although some DMs do think that way... I don't, personally).
Great, the simulacrums are never casting this spell. They are casting wish, which "duplicates" a spell of 8th level or lower, but doesn't actually cast that spell.
Also great! I (the Wizard) have only cast it once.
I mean, I know there are hundreds of posts in this thread, but I'm basically just repeating points I've made before and I find it annoying, to be frank. If you want to take the time and read my responses upthread, you'll basically know how I am going to respond to future remarks about this sort of stuff. In short:
1. 2024 changed nothing about the RAW abuse chain for (practically) infinite simulacrums of my PC wizard once I hit 17th level.
2. The RAW abuse chain is:
a) I cast simulacrum to make a SIM of myself. Like myself, it has wish prepared.
b) The SIM immediately casts its wish to make a SIM of myself (not itself).
c) SIM2 now repeats, casing its wish to make SIM of myself.
d) Repeat each new SIM of myself using its wish to make another SIM of myself until I get tired of it.
At 600 SIMs per hour, that is thousands in a day, tens of thousands in a week, and hundreds of thousands in a month.
Nothing in the new version prevents it because:
1. the SIMs are not casting simulacrum (they can't), but are casting wish.
2. I have only cast the spell once.
So... hopefully that clears that up. You can of course rule or run a game however you want, but this is the RAW way the spells work. WotC could have prevented all of this in a few different ways, but big surprise... they didn't. Hopefully they will address this in the errata.
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