D&D 5E Spellcasting Monsters, Spell Slotlessness, Bonus Actions, and Intent

[Chaltab]

PC spells generally use spell slots (except cantrips). But for some reason 5.5 monsters don't.

Most 5E monsters haven't since 2021, that's just how the game design has changed.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Most 5E monsters haven't since 2021, that's just how the game design has changed.

Well aware of it, but I don't like that game design, and haven't since at least Tasha's. It actively makes play as a DM less fun for me.

 

[Lazybones]

It is, but it has been reworked. Instead of not being able to use your action to cast a spell other than a cantrip if you cast a spell as a bonus action, action type no longer has anything to do with it. The rule is simply that you can only cast one spell using a spell slot per turn. This is much simpler, but it does mean that by RAW monsters can cast a non-cantrip spell with their action and their bonus action since they don’t actually use spell slots, and PCs who have features that allows them to cast a spell without expending a spell slot (like most species’ innate spells allow them to do), they can use such an ability in the same turn that they cast a bonus action spell.

Agreed. Monsters in the 2024 MM don't use spell slots, so by RAW they are not bound by the rules in the Player's Handbook that prevent casting multiple spells that use spell slots in a single turn. However, the example provided by the OP wouldn't work since hold person and spiritual weapon are both concentration spells. But that cult fanatic could combine spiritual weapon with command.

 

[Chaltab]

I keep forgetting that Spiritual Weapon is concentration in 5.24.

 

[Sorinth]

If this ever happened at my table, my players would immediately balk because it breaks setting logic and consistency. And they would IMO be right to do so. A spellcasting monster analogous in the fiction to a PC ought to abide by the same restrictions unless there's a specific in-fiction reason why they don't.

There have always been things that monster can do that PCs can't. For example in the '14 ruleset Gladiators had the ability Brute which allowed them to do an extra damage die with melee weapons and they had a Shield Bash attack,. PCs could never get those type of abilities.

These NPC type of creatures even when they get some kind of PC ability lose out on a ton of other abilities that PCs get. The aforementioned Gladiator doesn't get Second Wind or Action Surge, or any of the other Fighter class abilities. And the same is true for Archmage types, they are missing out on a ton of PC abilities that they should get if they are supposed to be analagous to PCs.

At the end of the day the in fiction reason is that people can learn and specialize in different things, not every Evoker in the world is going to choose to learn how to scult spells, some will focus on adding some other customization trick to their spells because it isn't meant to be something inherent to studying Evocation but simply the game making decisions for you because of the need for balance. So this particular archmage has spent his career learning how to cast magic quickly and so can break the 2 leveled spell limit, but it meant they didn't learn all the tricks that a PC wizard ends up learning during their career.

 

[Micah Sweet]

There have always been things that monster can do that PCs can't. For example in the '14 ruleset Gladiators had the ability Brute which allowed them to do an extra damage die with melee weapons and they had a Shield Bash attack,. PCs could never get those type of abilities.

These NPC type of creatures even when they get some kind of PC ability lose out on a ton of other abilities that PCs get. The aforementioned Gladiator doesn't get Second Wind or Action Surge, or any of the other Fighter class abilities. And the same is true for Archmage types, they are missing out on a ton of PC abilities that they should get if they are supposed to be analagous to PCs.

At the end of the day the in fiction reason is that people can learn and specialize in different things, not every Evoker in the world is going to choose to learn how to scult spells, some will focus on adding some other customization trick to their spells because it isn't meant to be something inherent to studying Evocation but simply the game making decisions for you because of the need for balance. So this particular archmage has spent his career learning how to cast magic quickly and so can break the 2 leveled spell limit, but it meant they didn't learn all the tricks that a PC wizard ends up learning during their career.

My answer to this is either to give analogous NPCs these PC abilities, or to abstract said effects to create something with analogous abilities and number ranges. Either way, the NPC statblock doesn't have anything outside of what the analogous PC is capable of (more or less and in somewhat broad strokes), and vice versa. Adjust abilities and numbers to taste.

 

[Sorinth]

My answer to this is either to give analogous NPCs these PC abilities, or to abstract said effects to create something with analogous abilities and number ranges. Either way, the NPC statblock doesn't have anything outside of what the analogous PC is capable of (more or less and in somewhat broad strokes), and vice versa. Adjust abilities and numbers to taste.

Obviously subjective, but personally I don't want my NPCs to be loaded up to the degree PCs are. It adds a lot of complexity on the DM's side for very little real gain. And I don't even believe it helps the in fiction to do so, if the setting was a Magic University I wouldn't expect every student who is specializing as an Illusionist to have the Improved Illusions ability. I would expect that while one Illusionist student might focus on and gain Improved Illusions, another student is probably focused on invisibility effects and maybe gains the ability to turn objects of a certain size invisible, another will have focused on the Phantasmal Force/Killer type of effects and gain some bonus to psychic damage, etc... Having that variety of abilities makes the fiction much more believable then everyone running around with the exact same set of abilities.

And while giving all of these as options for the PCs to take sounds nice in principle, it's a hell of a lot more work to balance things for PCs compared to balancing it for NPCs. Giving a unique ability to an NPC is fairly low effort to balance, and provides a high degree of believeability to the world. At the end of the day if a PC really wants some ability that only MM NPCs get, they can create a balanced homebrew spell/subclass with it so the only work on the DMs part is just looking at it and deciding whether it's balanced or not.

 

[Tonguez]

listening to crawford et al it seems that they are explicitly making Monster design and PC design different - Monsters can do things that PCs cant, including casting a bonus action and an action spell in the same turn. It makes them more formidable to face and balances action economy etc ...

 

[Micah Sweet]

Obviously subjective, but personally I don't want my NPCs to be loaded up to the degree PCs are. It adds a lot of complexity on the DM's side for very little real gain. And I don't even believe it helps the in fiction to do so, if the setting was a Magic University I wouldn't expect every student who is specializing as an Illusionist to have the Improved Illusions ability. I would expect that while one Illusionist student might focus on and gain Improved Illusions, another student is probably focused on invisibility effects and maybe gains the ability to turn objects of a certain size invisible, another will have focused on the Phantasmal Force/Killer type of effects and gain some bonus to psychic damage, etc... Having that variety of abilities makes the fiction much more believable then everyone running around with the exact same set of abilities.

And while giving all of these as options for the PCs to take sounds nice in principle, it's a hell of a lot more work to balance things for PCs compared to balancing it for NPCs. Giving a unique ability to an NPC is fairly low effort to balance, and provides a high degree of believeability to the world. At the end of the day if a PC really wants some ability that only MM NPCs get, they can create a balanced homebrew spell/subclass with it so the only work on the DMs part is just looking at it and deciding whether it's balanced or not.

Game balance is not my highest concern. Setting logic is more important to me.

 

[Sorinth]

Game balance is not my highest concern. Setting logic is more important to me.

And setting logic means an untold amount of variety so it makes sense that the PCs encounter unique abilities they've never seen or heard of.