D&D General Why grognards still matter

[Parmandur]

I think that's mostly true, at least in principle. I suppose the one caveat would be that I feel like there's been more grumblings from older fans over the last five years or so, in the post-Tasha's world. I don't know if it is because Dragonlance, Spelljammer, and Planescape were all considered somewhat disappointing (not by all, but certainly by many), or if there was a tonal shift (maybe both, and other factors). But on paper, there's still a nice range of products, and I think the formula of 1 splat, 1-2 settings, 1 adventure anthology, and 1 story arc is a good one.

Another point: I don't think the extra grumbling is actually representative of older gamers reaction to recent products...buy if it were, that would suggest younger gamers are more relevant, since the book sales seem to be humming along, and Beylnd subscriptions are increasing.

 

[Mercurius]

A lot of special pleading that "grognards" matter in the absence of evidence, is going on around in this thread.
From what I can tell, based on the last demographics I have seen, one has 46 plus as a rounding error and from another article I could find 40+ is 13 percent.
I am deeply sceptical that a market segment of less than 15% is outspending the rest in a market the size of D&D

And yet...the OP talks about 15-25 vs. 25 and older. In the chart you cite, 63% of players are 25+, which makes me think that I was correct in assuming that 25+ year olds buy the bulk of products.

Now obviously calling anyone over 25 a grognard is a bit silly, but the OP defines grognard by degree rather than as a binary.

Looking at that chart, you could group it in a variety of ways. 60% of players are age 20-34, but even that is a widish age range (and those folks are now 24-38).

 

[UngainlyTitan]

It's not that it was a rounding error: Greg Tito made that chart. And he latter clarified that it should have read "40+" all-inclusive rather than "40-45".

Fair enough, and I remember that now, still the over 40 cohort in total is between 11% and 13% of the total.

 

[Parmandur]

Fair enough, and I remember that now, still the over 40 cohort in total is between 11% and 13% of the total.

100%, just clarifying the context: people born between 2007-2011 were as big a part of the playerbase as people born prior to 1979.

 

[Mercurius]

Another point: I don't think the extra grumbling is actually representative of older gamers reaction to recent products...buy if it were, that would suggest younger gamers are more relevant, since the book sales seem to be humming along, and Beylnd subscriptions are increasing.

Do you know if there are sales reports on the new core rulebooks? I'd be curious to know how they're selling. I imagine it is a lot more than in 2014, but that wouldn't quite be a fair comparison as D&D was a lot less popular when 5E came out.

I think what is confusing is that we know there was a huge boom during 5E, probably peaking around 2021-22, but it seems unclear if it has "held." Has it dipped a little or a lot, plateaued, or even continued to rise? I haven't followed as closely recently, but it doesn't seem there are yearly reports of how many people are now playing, like there were a few years ago.

 

[UngainlyTitan]

And yet...the OP talks about 15-25 vs. 25 and older. In the chart you cite, 63% of players are 25+, which makes me think that I was correct in assuming that 25+ year olds buy the bulk of products.

Now obviously calling anyone over 25 a grognard is a bit silly, but the OP defines grognard by degree rather than as a binary.

Looking at that chart, you could group it in a variety of ways. 60% of players are age 20-34, but even that is a widish age range (and those folks are now 24-38).

But are they still 60%. Given that the core books have sold in similar or greater number than the 2014/115 sales, that would indicate that the player base has being growing each year by a number similar to the original 5e player base. Unless new players are acquired evenly across all age segments then the player base has becoming younger in its age profile over the years.

Edit: Sorry hit post prematurely.
We really do not know enough how the age profile has been changing over time, not enough data points and we have no way to correlate the demographics we do know to sales of anything.

 

[Parmandur]

Do you know if there are sales reports on the new core rulebooks? I'd be curious to know how they're selling. I imagine it is a lot more than in 2014, but that wouldn't quite be a fair comparison as D&D was a lot less popular when 5E came out.

I think what is confusing is that we know there was a huge boom during 5E, probably peaking around 2021-22, but it seems unclear if it has "held." Has it dipped a little or a lot, plateaued, or even continued to rise? I haven't followed as closely recently, but it doesn't seem there are yearly reports of how many people are now playing, like there were a few years ago.

Apparently the 2024 PHB has sold more already than the 2014 did in the first three years...which means it has outsold the 3E, 3.5 and 4E PHB already. Mostly their reports have focused on increasing active Beyond users, which probsvly mean more realistically anyway.

 

[UngainlyTitan]

Apparently the 2024 PHB has sold more already than the 2014 did in the first three years...which means it has outsold the 3E, 3.5 and 4E PHB already. Mostly their reports have focused on increasing active Beyond users, which probsvly mean more realistically anyway.

The problem with this, is it entangles with the existing player base re purchasing the new rules. It will be at least 4 or 5 years before we can untangle that from the rate of acquisition of new players (if any) assuming we can find a suitable proxy for book sales.

 

[overgeeked]

Why does this matter? I see a lot of people focusing on generational BS. I do not recall age wars in D&D back in the day.

Gamers tended to stick together because those were the people who understood us.

We had wildly different experiences back-in-the-day.

I started in 1984 with B/X and quickly moved to AD&D. My brother and his group had been playing for years at that point. I remember the older, OD&D- early AD&D-playing wargamers looking down on the new kids who came in with the AD&D pop culture fad moment. When those kids got older they looked down on the incoming crop of theater kids who quickly moved from AD&D2E to things like Vampire.

If you look at the fanzines from the time they are filled to bursting with those “understanding gamers” endlessly complaining about the new kids, whoever they were.

 

[Parmandur]

The problem with this, is it entangles with the existing player base re purchasing the new rules. It will be at least 4 or 5 years before we can untangle that from the rate of acquisition of new players (if any) assuming we can find a suitable proxy for book sales.

Yeah, apparently Ray Winninger said recently on this board, the first year with the core books I was meant to sell.to existing players, wirh the Starter Set release in 2025 really meant to be the relaunch aimed at new player acquisition.