D&D 5E 2024 D&D is 2014 D&D with 4E sprinkled on top

[Aldarc]

First of all, I see Batman as a mundane hero in that "action movie sense" I referenced above, and every time he goes beyond that without fancy tech or some kind of supernatural explanation, that is bad writing from my perspective.

Secondly, I'm of the opinion, expressed by some others here, that mundane characters after a certain level simply have to find a source of supernatural power and thus become supernatural beings in some way to keep up with the world of D&D and the high threats it supposes. And I don't think that compromises them at all, because mundane stories IMO simply cease making any kind of sense at a certain point.

I don't think that Batman is a mundane hero in that "action movie sense" because that is not the genre fiction that he operates in. Batman doesn't exist in a separate universe from Superman, Wonder Woman, Aquaman, the Flash, or Green Lantern. Batman operates in superhero genre fiction of DC. Superhero genre fiction may share elements with "action movie sense" or "Hollywood sense" and other related genres (e.g., action pulp, crime/detective, etc.) but Batman is nevertheless a character within superhero genre fiction.

 

[Scribe]

At its core, I think because calling it "supernatural" versus not creates two different stories. And there's a distinction in the narrative identity between "doing something supernatural in scope because you're awesome" and "being born or granted supernatural power".

There is a difference there, and theres a third path that some seem to want deleted.

"You are not special, awesome, or empowered, in anyway more than anyone else, but you are willing to stand and do your job anyway."

Thats the thing that gets lost, if we give everyone superpowers.

 

[Remathilis]

Batman is considered a "mundane" hero but what he is capable of achieving and doing as a human is simply not realistic in our world; however, calling him "magical" or "supernatural" defies the popular conception and categorization of the character for both comic fans and lay people alike. He is a "mundane" character in the superhero genre, and he is capable of doing extraordinary and at times fantastical things while also being regarded, both in the fiction and outside of it, as a "mundane" person without supernatural powers.

Batman is still only working at peak human ability and relies a lot on tech and plot armor to match the other members of the Justice League. Put Bruce Wayne naked in a cell with Clark Kent and have them fight and Bruce is getting rekked. No matter how much training he does, he's not beating Superman in an arm wrestling contest or the Flash in a race. Give Bats power armor and the Batmobile and the can be competitive, but not on his own.

What I keep getting the feeling @EzekielRaiden wants is that Batman should at some point be able to train enough to beat Supes without kryptonite. And that's not happening unless Bats gets his own metahuman powers OR Supes is powered down to his 1930's power level again (with Bats keeping his 2020's abilities). Or that with enough training, Bats grows into Supes, but without the alien origin. And that is a hefty amount of change beyond "buff martials".

 

[Aldarc]

Batman is still only working at peak human ability and relies a lot on tech and plot armor to match the other members of the Justice League. Put Bruce Wayne naked in a cell with Clark Kent and have them fight and Bruce is getting rekked. No matter how much training he does, he's not beating Superman in an arm wrestling contest or the Flash in a race. Give Bats power armor and the Batmobile and the can be competitive, but not on his own.

What I keep getting the feeling @EzekielRaiden wants is that Batman should at some point be able to train enough to beat Supes without kryptonite. And that's not happening unless Bats gets his own metahuman powers OR Supes is powered down to his 1930's power level again (with Bats keeping his 2020's abilities). Or that with enough training, Bats grows into Supes, but without the alien origin. And that is a hefty amount of change beyond "buff martials".

To be clear, I don't think that it's an either/or. Batman is still operating beyond what you claim is only "peak human ability" by most reasonable metrics of reality. He has both an extraordinary (and times fantastical) abilities as a human AND his tech. I am mostly speaking to the fact that Batman operates not within real world logic or reality but, instead, in superhero genre fiction. Batman shares the same superhero genre fiction with other superheroes with super powers. Batman isn't having to play with the Walking Dead rules for humans while Superman plays the DC/Marvel superhero game.

 

[Voadam]

EDIT: Important to add, it is the reason why I (and many others) inwardly groaned when they had John Wick fall from an impossible height in the 3rd movie, hitting everything on the way down, and survive, because they really really stretched the leash of extraordinary feats such a character could do where he was now arguably performing supernatural feats.

I agree. Same groan in Black Widow when the same thing happens. It breaks the immersion of the character concept.

Hawkeye in the Avengers falls off a skyscraper and survives because he uses a ridiculous trick rope grappling arrow to arrest his fall and not hit the ground, that works with his concept. He is a guy who should die if he hits the ground, so he does not hit the ground. Black Widow falling multiple stories and hitting the ground to just groan and show it hurt before getting up goes against the character concept of a skilled ultracompetent person.

Thor gets knocked down from a huge height and craters into the ground and groans then gets up and it works with his character concept because he is a supernaturally tough martial who can shrug off the impact.

 

[Remathilis]

To be clear, I don't think that it's an either/or. Batman is still operating beyond what you claim is only "peak human ability" by most reasonable metrics of reality. He has both an extraordinary (and times fantastical) abilities as a human AND his tech. I am mostly speaking to the fact that Batman operates not within real world logic or reality, but, instead, in superhero genre fiction. Batman shares the same superhero genre fiction with other superheroes with super powers. Batman isn't having to play with the Walking Dead rules for humans while Superman plays the DC/Marvel superhero game.

I agree genre does play into this, but that's almost a side argument. Sone people want Batman, some want Boromir. I'm not even going to consider that latter group for the moment; Boromir is so far below what a D&D character can do that it's not possible to satisfy that player using stock 5e. Even I'm willing to allow martials past human limits. HOW FAR past and HOW THEY GET THERE is the issue for me.

 

[Aldarc]

I agree genre does play into this, but that's almost a side argument. Sone people want Batman, some want Boromir. I'm not even going to consider that latter group for the moment; Boromir is so far below what a D&D character can do that it's not possible to satisfy that player using stock 5e. Even I'm willing to allow martials past human limits. HOW FAR past and HOW THEY GET THERE is the issue for me.

Again, this goes back to my earlier point about identifying and negotiating D&D's genre fiction:

IMHO, it's important to recognize how (to use your words) the "internal setting logic" of genre fiction, which is what D&D is, shapes the bounds of the ordinary, mundane, and realistic beyond that of our non-fictive world. In the case of D&D that means that the "mundane" characters are capable of things that are not within the scope of what is possible in our world. Where those limits of the "mundane" lie depends on how we identify or negotiate the nature of D&D's genre as a setting.

 

[Micah Sweet]

I don't think that Batman is a mundane hero in that "action movie sense" because that is not the genre fiction that he operates in. Batman doesn't exist in a separate universe from Superman, Wonder Woman, Aquaman, the Flash, or Green Lantern. Batman operates in superhero genre fiction of DC. Superhero genre fiction may share elements with "action movie sense" or "Hollywood sense" and other related genres (e.g., action pulp, crime/detective, etc.) but Batman is nevertheless a character within superhero genre fiction.

I see what you're saying, but to me genre is irrelevant to that question. It doesn't affect whether or not what you're doing is beyond mundane limits. Rather, it determines how acceptable breaking those limits is, and even comics usually provide explanations for superhuman feats that go beyond action movie stuff. And when they don't provide them, or otherwise go beyond action movie for mundane, that to me is simply bad writing.

 

[CreamCloud0]

I agree. Same groan in Black Widow when the same thing happens. It breaks the immersion of the character concept.

Hawkeye in the Avengers falls off a skyscraper and survives because he uses a ridiculous trick rope grappling arrow to arrest his fall and not hit the ground, that works with his concept. He is a guy who should die if he hits the ground, so he does not hit the ground. Black Widow falling multiple stories and hitting the ground to just groan and show it hurt before getting up goes against the character concept of a skilled ultracompetent person.

Thor gets knocked down from a huge height and craters into the ground and groans then gets up and it works with his character concept because he is a supernaturally tough martial who can shrug off the impact.

i want to point out here, that in MCU and DC, they're at least trying to keep up the pretence that they are on our earth, that batman and black widow are just people like any who you could meet in any street, maybe it's a parallel dimension where magic exists but fundamentally the setting conceit is that this is a version of earth, these humans are like us, DnD does not do that, DnD is a setting based on myths and legends, ignoring the fact they are literal gods/demigods thor, loki, hercules and wonder woman are closer to the kind of stories and 'humans' that DnD is based off of and trying to emulate.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

Batman is a perfect example. In a universe of "magic" beings like Superman, Batman still flourishes. In terms of just power, Batman is weaker by far. Batman is still a cool character but how is that? Equipment.

We also have Green Lantern who is powerless without his ring.

Ironman who I'd argue was known only well in the comics world prior to Downey's portrayal is another mundane type with super duper equipment. That is your 18th level fighter.

Here's my problem with that:

My character is nothing. My items are everything.

If I wanted something like that, there's a plethora of MMOs out there.