D&D 5E 2024 D&D is 2014 D&D with 4E sprinkled on top

[AnotherGuy]

The problem is that even if we decide the fighter is King of Combat, we haven't fixed the fundamental issue.

Remove every attack spell from the PHB, fire bolt to meteor swarm. Wizards cannot do a point of damage without pulling out a crossbow. We have made the fighter the best in combat. Has parity been achieved? Not really. The wizard sits on his hands every time initiative is rolled and the fighter shines, then combat ends and the fighter sits on his hands while the wizard shines. You give each a time to shine but never the same time. That leads to the "wake me when it's time to roll dice" downtime that kills enthusiasm.

So you end up with one of two scenarios. You have to nerf magic to such a degree that the wizard is second in combat, but also only slightly ahead in noncombat. Or you have to buff martials so that they can play with similar toys that the wizard gets. Flight. Instant movement. Divination. Etc. Essentially, the wizard needs to be dragged several levels worth of power down to be closer to mundane OR the fighter needs to be able to break reality like a wizard. And all the grit and training in the world isn't going to help when the demon lord causes a cave in and the wizard teleports and the fighter can't.

I agree with you that the fundamental issue for change (in order to realise this ideal to create the mundane and supernatural paths) lies first, with nerfing magic. Whether it is the combat or not, I'm not sure, but magic overall certainly needs to be reined in. The inherent magical power within the game is IMO too high.

EDIT: Just to state this is mostly a me-preference. I do not know if this preference is shared at large.

 

[TwoSix]

And I really don't understand why that isn't ok for some folks.

At its core, I think because calling it "supernatural" versus not creates two different stories. And there's a distinction in the narrative identity between "doing something supernatural in scope because you're awesome" and "being born or granted supernatural power".

 

[Micah Sweet]

At its core, I think because calling it "supernatural" versus not creates two different stories. And there's a distinction in the narrative identity between "doing something supernatural in scope because you're awesome" and "being born or granted supernatural power".

Ok, I guess the former narrative just doesn't seem that valuable to me, since supernatural effects IMO have to have a reason, and "I'm just THAT good" really doesn't cut it for me.

 

[Aldarc]

My view is that the context on what is mundane IMO is always going to be our world, since that's the one we live in and what we understand. A given setting might see Beowulf as mundane (though I really don't see how unless the world is pretty unrecognizable), but as a person living in a world where his actions are well beyond impossible, I really can't. The people in Beowulf's world (and much of our history) believed the supernatural permeated everything around them, but that doesn't mean they saw a legendary hero like Beowulf as a mundane figure whose feats anyone could duplicate under the right circumstances. It's still supernatural. And I really don't understand why that isn't ok for some folks.

Batman is considered a "mundane" hero but what he is capable of achieving and doing as a human is simply not realistic in our world; however, calling him "magical" or "supernatural" defies the popular conception and categorization of the character for both comic fans and lay people alike. He is a "mundane" character in the superhero genre, and he is capable of doing extraordinary and at times fantastical things while also being regarded, both in the fiction and outside of it, as a "mundane" person without supernatural powers.

IMHO, it's important to recognize how (to use your words) the "internal setting logic" of genre fiction, which is what D&D is, shapes the bounds of the ordinary, mundane, and realistic beyond that of our non-fictive world. In the case of D&D that means that the "mundane" characters are capable of things that are not within the scope of what is possible in our world. Where those limits of the "mundane" lie depends on how we identify or negotiate the nature of D&D's genre as a setting.

Where some people like @EzekielRaiden takes some umbrage is what he likely perceives as "one standard for me and another for thee" for the fighter and mage when it comes to understanding D&D's genre. The magical characters are seemingly held to the standards of a different genre of fiction than the mundane characters when it comes to what they can achieve. To put this in comic book terms, the magical characters are held to the standards of superpowered heroes in Marvel/DC while mundane characters are held to the standards of humans in The Walking Dead. I hope you can also understand why that isn't okay for some folks.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

If he goes beyond action movie physics in his activities...to my mind, yes. I've only seen the Arnold movie and read some of the old Marvel comics, so I'm.not familiar with all his exploits.

He isn't any more supernatural than Indiana Jones or John McClane.

 

[Emerikol]

A few posts back, I posted a very, very truncated list of the bare minimum a caster could do over 18 levels. By about 7th level, the caster can do things that the non-casters can never, ever do. And that was with about a quarter of what a sorcerer can actually do.

This is very much a lost argument. And, like I said, there is no way we can get these ideas into the game directly. They'll have to be backdoored in through other systems until they get accepted, and then, maybe, we can actually have anything approaching class parity.

The problem as I see it is that "parity" as you call it creates a game that just feels nonsensical to many of us. We are fine with cinematic action for martials but we are not for Paul Bunyan nonsense. We can believe that magic is capable of things we can't imagine otherwise only because it is magical. So what is the fix? Well if as you do you feel martials are woefully inadequate, you can give them magic items to augment them.

A lot of people, and not just the magic using ones, enjoy traditional D&D which works exactly the way you say you don't like and so many others also say. Just not a majority by any means. We fell in love with THAT game. It's why OSR is so popular these days. But even for those wanting a more modern system, the way magic and martial ability works is still desired by many. They've rejected so many tropes from the original game so it's not an aversion by WOTC to doing so. It's an aversion to players rejecting the game leading to a repeat of 4e.

And the problem ultimately seems to be the battle over the name "D&D". But why should those wanting to deviate from it's roots get the name? That doesn't seem right. D&D has meant something for decades. Why change to some completely different system and still call it D&D?

I wish they could take WOTC 4e and make it it's own game and give it it's own name. They probably hesitate because they don't want to split the player base. They haven't learned the secret the breakfast cereal companies have learned. Provide something for everyone and drive the small guys out.

Personally I'd love a return to this style of gaming....
1. Deadly consequences: Save or Die, Rust monsters, Level draining, etc...
2. Simple traditional healing (though even I could tweak this in a very minor way)
3. No dissociative metagame plot coupon mechanics.
4. Maybe have Greyhawk be the setting.
5. A reasonable number of modules created along the lines of 1e modules.

I'm sure there are more things I could add but you get the idea.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Batman is considered a "mundane" hero but what he is capable of achieving and doing as a human is simply not realistic in our world; however, calling him "magical" or "supernatural" defies the popular conception and categorization of the character for both comic fans and lay people alike. He is a "mundane" character in the superhero genre, and he is capable of doing extraordinary and at times fantastical things while also being regarded, both in the fiction and outside of it, as a "mundane" person without supernatural powers.

IMHO, it's important to recognize how (to use your words) the "internal setting logic" of genre fiction, which is what D&D is, shapes the bounds of the ordinary, mundane, and realistic beyond that of our non-fictive world. In the case of D&D that means that the "mundane" characters are capable of things that are not within the scope of what is possible in our world. Where those limits of the "mundane" lie depends on how we identify or negotiate the nature of D&D's genre as a setting.

Where some people like @EzekielRaiden takes some umbrage is what he likely perceives as "one standard for me and another for thee" for the fighter and mage when it comes to understanding D&D's genre. The magical characters are seemingly held to the standards of a different genre of fiction than the mundane characters when it comes to what they can achieve. To put this in comic book terms, the magical characters are held to the standards of superpowered heroes in Marvel/DC while mundane characters are held to the standards of humans in The Walking Dead. I hope you can also understand why that isn't okay for some folks.

First of all, I see Batman as a mundane hero in that "action movie sense" I referenced above, and every time he goes beyond that without fancy tech or some kind of supernatural explanation, that is bad writing from my perspective.

Secondly, I'm of the opinion, expressed by some others here, that mundane characters after a certain level simply have to find a source of supernatural power and thus become supernatural beings in some way to keep up with the world of D&D and the high threats it supposes. And I don't think that compromises them at all, because mundane stories IMO simply cease making any kind of sense at a certain point.

 

[Micah Sweet]

He isn't any more supernatural than Indiana Jones or John McClane.

Then he's fine as an action movie mundane, just like them.

 

[AnotherGuy]

Batman is considered a "mundane" hero but what he is capable of achieving and doing as a human is simply not realistic in our world; however, calling him "magical" or "supernatural" defies the popular conception and categorization of the character for both comic fans and lay people alike. He is a "mundane" character in the superhero genre, and he is capable of doing extraordinary and at times fantastical things while also being regarded, both in the fiction and outside of it, as a "mundane" person without supernatural powers.

There is a certain amount of Hollywoodesque that is acceptable in terms of Batman / Tom Cruise in MI ...etc and then there is the supernatural element of a Hercules or Beowulf.

And that is not to say that the above line has not been blurred (and likely broken) by directors and comic book writers.
So, I like to place Batman/MI feats in the Extraordinary camp with actions doable with feats and high levels and then there is a figure like Hercules who should auto have supernatural feats.

In our home game, I've got a soft 9th level cap for every mortal, PCs and NPCs.
The characters that exceed that 9th level cap, and something must have happened to them, can perform extraordinary or supernatural feats (actions).

EDIT: Important to add, it is the reason why I (and many others) inwardly groaned when they had John Wick fall from an impossible height in the 3rd movie, hitting everything on the way down, and survive, because they really really stretched the leash of extraordinary feats such a character could do where he was now arguably performing supernatural feats.

 

[Emerikol]

Batman is a perfect example. In a universe of "magic" beings like Superman, Batman still flourishes. In terms of just power, Batman is weaker by far. Batman is still a cool character but how is that? Equipment.

We also have Green Lantern who is powerless without his ring.

Ironman who I'd argue was known only well in the comics world prior to Downey's portrayal is another mundane type with super duper equipment. That is your 18th level fighter.