D&D (2024) D&D Marilith Is Far More Bestial In 2025

The new 2025 Monster Manual has all-new art, and one major change is the depiction of the marilith. Up until now, the marilith has been depicted as a six-armed humanish female from the waist up; while in the 2025 book, the picture is far more bestial in nature.

Not only is the imagery more demonic, it also features the creature in action, simultaneously beheading, stabbing, and entwining its foes with its six arms and snake-like tail.

mariliths.png

Left 2025 Marilith / Right 2014 Marilith
 

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Let's look at orcs, one of those few I did look at. The 4e MM has 8 paragraphs of lore. The 5e MM has like 23 paragraphs of lore, and they are mostly longer paragraphs than the 8 in the 4e MM. The 3e MM has 9 paragraphs, so on par with 4e. The 2e MM has like 16, and includes orc ecology.

2e and 5e blow the 4e lore on orcs out of the water. Now maybe I've just been unlucky and many other creatures have a dozen plus paragraphs of lore in the 4e MM, which is why I said "It seems like..." instead of making a claim about the edition as a whole.
From pp 202, 205:

Orcs worship Gruumsh, the one-eyed god of slaughter, and are savage, bloodthirsty marauders. They plague the civilized races of the world and also fight among themselves for scraps of food and treasure. They love close combat and plunge furiously into the thick of battle, giving no thought to retreat or surrender.

Within what passes for orc society, there are orcs that fill special roles. Eyes of Gruumsh are orcs with a special connection to their fierce god. They offer sacrifices, read omens, and advise the tribe’s chieftain of Gruumsh’s will. Orc bloodragers are tribal champions feared for their strength and ferocity, and they also make excellent subchiefs or bodyguards.

Orcs often fight alongside ogres, and they can be coerced or bullied into serving any dark overlord or wicked monster powerful enough to command their obedience. . . .

Orcs favor hills and mountains, places pocked by caverns easily turned into defensible lairs. Bloodthirsty marauders and cannibals, orcs venerate Gruumsh and thereby delight in slaughter and destruction.

Orcs don’t build settlements of their own, instead improving existing shelters with crude fortifications. They prefer to settle in natural caves or structures abandoned by other, more skillful races. Orcs can manage simple ironwork and stonework, but they are lazy and grasping, preferring to take by force the tools, weapons, and goods other folk make. . . .

Orcs band together into loose tribal associations. The strongest individual in a tribe leads as a despotic chieftain. Individual bands within a tribe might wander far from their native lands, but they still recognize orcs from the same tribe as kin. . . .

Orcs often demonstrate their faith in Gruumsh by gouging out one of their eyes and offering it as a sacrifice to their one-eyed god.

According to myth, Corellon shot out Gruumsh’s eye with an arrow. For this reason, orcs hold a special hatred for elves and eladrin.​

Compared to the AD&D MM, this has more information about Orcish religion and social organisation. It has less information about demographics and preferred weapons (though the latter can be easily inferred from the stat blocks). The only bit of colour about Orcish society in the AD&D MM that is not replicated in the 4e MM is that "Known orc tribes include the following: Vile Rune, Bloody Head, Death Moon, Broken Bone, Evil Eye, Leprous Hand, Rotting Eye, Dripping Blade".

Here is the 3.5 MM (pp 203-4):

Orcs are aggressive humanoids that raid, pillage, and battle other creatures. They have a hatred of elves and dwarves that began generations ago, and often kill such creatures on sight. . . .

When not actually fighting other creatures, orcs are usually planning raids or practicing their fighting skills. . .

They enjoy attacking from concealment and setting ambushes, and they obey the rules of war (such as honoring a truce) only as long as it is convenient for them. . . .

Orcs believe that to survive, they must conquer as much territory as possible, which puts them at odds with all intelligent creatures that live near them. They are constantly warring or preparing to war with other humanoids, including other orc tribes. They can ally with other humanoids for a time but quickly rebel if not commanded by orcs. Their deities teach them that all other beings are inferior and that all wordly goods rightly belong to the orcs, having been stolen by others. Orc spellcasters are ambitious, and rivalries between them and warrior leaders sometimes tear a tribe apart.

Orc society is patriarchal. Females are prized possessions at best and chattel at worst. Male orcs pride themselves on the number of females they own and male children they sire, as well as their battle prowess, wealth and amount of territory. They wear their battle scars proudly and ritually scar themselves to mark significant achievements and turning points in their lives.

An orc lair may be a cave, a series of wooden huts, a fort or even a large city built above and below ground. . . .

The chief orce deity is Gruumsh, a one-eyed god who tolerates no sigh of peaceability among his people.​

This does not differ a great deal from the 4e stuff. The 3.5 text talks about the love of ambushes, but - unlike 4e - it does not explain why Orcs hate Dwarves and Elves. It tells us about rivalries between warriors and spellcasters, but doesn't tell us who these are or what their social roles are, whereas the 4e material does address that. 4e drops - I think for fairly apparent reasons - the discussion of women as property of men. But it does mention cannibalism.

I don't have the 2nd ed AD&D or 5e descriptions to hand (though I have reviewed the 2nd ed AD&D discussion of creatures in other threads, and think the claims to its extensiveness are greatly exaggerated). But given the above comparison of AD&D, 3.5 and 4e, I think it's simply not true to say, as you did, that
I don't think 4e is really the edition to be relying on when it comes to lore. Every time I look up lore for a creature, it's so sparse that it seem that edition flipped the bird at lore in general.
I mean, unless you also think that AD&D and 3E "flipped the bird at lore in general".
 

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If you go to the Abyss as a soul, you are turned into a Larva. You REALLY have no sexual characteristics at that point. It's not like demons breed.
I thought you become a Manes? Aren't Larvae in Hades?

Or are my AD&D-era understandings out-of-date in this Planescape-y world?!
 

Going to the old "definition" of Chaos (no alignment wars please), Chaos was more "individualistic" and less group oriented.

After all, wasn't Arioch (Elric's patron) pretty darn smart?

I would agree as a trend that demons are more likely to be brutish, and powerful, but being chaotic doesn't mean less intelligent per se.
Maybe not less intelligent, but, certainly less organized and forward thinking. I mean, Demogorgon has a nearly godlike intellect, but, is hardly what I'd call a deep planner.
 

Wait, what?

If you go to the Abyss as a soul, you are turned into a Larva. You REALLY have no sexual characteristics at that point. It's not like demons breed.
Demons do breed. There's multiple ways to make a Demon, whether it be as a petitioner (a soul in the afterlife) which could be as a Mane or Larva initially, through breeding, through being spontaneously spawned by the Abyss itself or through corruption.
 

Demons do breed. There's multiple ways to make a Demon, whether it be as a petitioner (a soul in the afterlife) which could be as a Mane or Larva initially, through breeding, through being spontaneously spawned by the Abyss itself or through corruption.
Is this a Planescape thing? I've never heard of the idea of demons actually breeding.
 


From pp 202, 205:

Orcs worship Gruumsh, the one-eyed god of slaughter, and are savage, bloodthirsty marauders. They plague the civilized races of the world and also fight among themselves for scraps of food and treasure. They love close combat and plunge furiously into the thick of battle, giving no thought to retreat or surrender.​
Within what passes for orc society, there are orcs that fill special roles. Eyes of Gruumsh are orcs with a special connection to their fierce god. They offer sacrifices, read omens, and advise the tribe’s chieftain of Gruumsh’s will. Orc bloodragers are tribal champions feared for their strength and ferocity, and they also make excellent subchiefs or bodyguards.​
Orcs often fight alongside ogres, and they can be coerced or bullied into serving any dark overlord or wicked monster powerful enough to command their obedience. . . .​
Orcs favor hills and mountains, places pocked by caverns easily turned into defensible lairs. Bloodthirsty marauders and cannibals, orcs venerate Gruumsh and thereby delight in slaughter and destruction.​
Orcs don’t build settlements of their own, instead improving existing shelters with crude fortifications. They prefer to settle in natural caves or structures abandoned by other, more skillful races. Orcs can manage simple ironwork and stonework, but they are lazy and grasping, preferring to take by force the tools, weapons, and goods other folk make. . . .​
Orcs band together into loose tribal associations. The strongest individual in a tribe leads as a despotic chieftain. Individual bands within a tribe might wander far from their native lands, but they still recognize orcs from the same tribe as kin. . . .​
Orcs often demonstrate their faith in Gruumsh by gouging out one of their eyes and offering it as a sacrifice to their one-eyed god.​
According to myth, Corellon shot out Gruumsh’s eye with an arrow. For this reason, orcs hold a special hatred for elves and eladrin.​

Compared to the AD&D MM, this has more information about Orcish religion and social organisation. It has less information about demographics and preferred weapons (though the latter can be easily inferred from the stat blocks). The only bit of colour about Orcish society in the AD&D MM that is not replicated in the 4e MM is that "Known orc tribes include the following: Vile Rune, Bloody Head, Death Moon, Broken Bone, Evil Eye, Leprous Hand, Rotting Eye, Dripping Blade".

Here is the 3.5 MM (pp 203-4):

Orcs are aggressive humanoids that raid, pillage, and battle other creatures. They have a hatred of elves and dwarves that began generations ago, and often kill such creatures on sight. . . .​
When not actually fighting other creatures, orcs are usually planning raids or practicing their fighting skills. . .​
They enjoy attacking from concealment and setting ambushes, and they obey the rules of war (such as honoring a truce) only as long as it is convenient for them. . . .​
Orcs believe that to survive, they must conquer as much territory as possible, which puts them at odds with all intelligent creatures that live near them. They are constantly warring or preparing to war with other humanoids, including other orc tribes. They can ally with other humanoids for a time but quickly rebel if not commanded by orcs. Their deities teach them that all other beings are inferior and that all wordly goods rightly belong to the orcs, having been stolen by others. Orc spellcasters are ambitious, and rivalries between them and warrior leaders sometimes tear a tribe apart.​
Orc society is patriarchal. Females are prized possessions at best and chattel at worst. Male orcs pride themselves on the number of females they own and male children they sire, as well as their battle prowess, wealth and amount of territory. They wear their battle scars proudly and ritually scar themselves to mark significant achievements and turning points in their lives.​
An orc lair may be a cave, a series of wooden huts, a fort or even a large city built above and below ground. . . .​
The chief orce deity is Gruumsh, a one-eyed god who tolerates no sigh of peaceability among his people.​

This does not differ a great deal from the 4e stuff. The 3.5 text talks about the love of ambushes, but - unlike 4e - it does not explain why Orcs hate Dwarves and Elves. It tells us about rivalries between warriors and spellcasters, but doesn't tell us who these are or what their social roles are, whereas the 4e material does address that. 4e drops - I think for fairly apparent reasons - the discussion of women as property of men. But it does mention cannibalism.

I don't have the 2nd ed AD&D or 5e descriptions to hand (though I have reviewed the 2nd ed AD&D discussion of creatures in other threads, and think the claims to its extensiveness are greatly exaggerated). But given the above comparison of AD&D, 3.5 and 4e, I think it's simply not true to say, as you did, that
I mean, unless you also think that AD&D and 3E "flipped the bird at lore in general".
That's a lot of words to ignore that I did the comparison and 2e, which is AD&D by the way, had double the number of lore paragraphs and 5e had more than double. But sure, I guess if you only look at 3e and 4e, the lore seems comparable.
 


Faces of Evil definitely says they can breed. Planescape for sure, but even Greyhawk says that Demons can breed at least with non-Demons as Iuz is the son of Graz'zt and Iggwilv.
Yeah, cambions (half-demons) appeared in the AD&D 1E Monster Manual II as I recall, and the alu-fiend (another half-demon) is from S4 The Lost Caverns of Tsojcanth.
 

Is this a Planescape thing? I've never heard of the idea of demons actually breeding.
I don't remember any specific breeding demon to demon, but both male and female demons have produced half-demons, so I suppose it's theoretically possible that two demons can breed. There is also a module with a half-demon(marilith)/half-devil(chain devil) in it. I ran across that while looking stuff up for this thread.
 

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