D&D General No One Reads Conan Now -- So What Are They Reading?

[Clint_L]

My point was more about reading it and determining for themselves what to make of it (i.e. is it racist, if so how much, how much that impacts their enjoyment of the work, etc). I wasn't trying to say it isn't obvious in places

I do think by the standards of the standards of their time is a whole other topic. And I do think here people really minimize how widespread and oppressive racism was when they want to make an argument that lovecraft or howard were out of line with their peers. Lovecraft certainly had a weird New England form of racism that is bizarre to us now, but this is a time when black people were being denied basic human rights in the US, when lynching were happening and when antisemitism was everywhere. I get that it wasn't everyone. But someone like Lovecraft could write the way he did in his letters because these kinds of views were not that unusual.

I teach literature. In graduate school at Queen's University, my specialty area (meaning the one I sat my PhD specialty exam on) was post-Civil War American Literature. I'm pretty familiar with the literature and culture of that place and time. Lovecraft and Howard stand out, and arguing otherwise is nonsensical. Particularly Lovecraft, whose various prejudices are probably symptomatic of deep mental health issues.

I also write this as a backer of various Lovecraftian games (see all the miniatures I have recently posted over on the "grey tide" thread) and someone who has run many Call of Cthulhu games, is currently planning a new Arkham Horror campaign, and whose favourite boardgame is Eldritch Horror. I bought every issue of Savage Sword of Conan when I was a kid, and have basically read every Howard novel. You can love the material while recognizing that a lot of it is messed up and has no place today.

 

[DarkCrisis]

I recently read Conan so....

Recently been reading Fafnir and the Gray Mouser and The Witcher stuff.

Taking break in between Fantasy to read some Scifi and YA stuff (sometimes you want a cheeseburger instead a steak).

AND going back through all of the Drizzt novels.

 

[TiQuinn]

It seems that this topic comes up every time we talk about fantasy not of the current era. The best professor I had when I was in college always started a particular book or play off by discussing the context of the world at the time of the play. If you read Shakespeare and notice that the Catholic characters are ... less than stellar, it's helpful to know about the context of the real-world political situation and who Shakespeare was writing for.

Can we read Howard or Lovecraft in 2025? I think we definitely can. I know that a lot of novels of that era and the pulps in general were written from a particular worldview that's changed since then. I think that I'm able to deduce that fact from any book I'm reading.

In the real world outside of gaming, I have been involved in discussions about removing Huckleberry Finn and To Kill a Mockingbird from schools. I argued against removing them as examples of writing that talked about America at a particular time and place. I'd say the same thing about Conan, even if it's a lot less important.

I've been around for a long time, but in terms of political or literary movements, I'm just a baby. When we stop reading books of an era because their worldviews are different (and repugnant) to us, we lose a profound connection to the past. And even if we don't know it, we place ourselves to be removed when the views of what's acceptable or not change, as they undoubtedly will. I don't want to step into territory we don't talk about here, but stop and think of how views have changed in the last 20 years. Then, think about the last 40. I find it difficult to share movies I really enjoyed as a kid with my daughter because of some of those changes.

In my opinion, read Howard, or Lovecraft, or not as you like. I recommend them to people who are interested in Swords and Sorcery or otherworldly horror, but I give them a caveat. Just like I do with The Goonies.

I don’t think there’s a problem with reading Howard or Lovecraft; I really don’t think anyone is advocating not to. I enjoy reading Lovecraft because his writing was incredibly evocative and the distance between his era and mine helps me get past the racist aspects of his works. I can compartmentalize them much better than if I were to decide to sit down and read JK Rowling today and compartmentalize how I feel about her.

 

[Bedrockgames]

I teach literature. In graduate school at Queen's University, my specialty area (meaning the one I sat my PhD specialty exam on) is post-Civil War American Literature. I'm pretty familiar with the literature and culture of that place and time. Lovecraft and Howard stand out, and arguing otherwise is nonsensical. Particularly Lovecraft, whose various prejudices are probably symptomatic of deep mental health issues.

I realize this. We've had these discussion before lol (And I think you and I just have wildly different approaches to interpretation of text: I remember at one point we were completely at odds over whether a line from Dark Sun was intended to be delivered with irony for instance).

But I would disagree that their views were out of sync with their times. Particularly Howard, who expressed a lot of views you would have encountered in Texas during Jim Crow (I alluded to his letters, which people can google and see what he said, and those were horrible sentiments I think we know were unfortunately not uncommon in his day). And Lovecraft's views were also not that uncommon in New England at the time. I do agree they are amplified by mental illness and his unique personality quirks, and he was more obsessive about them but even when I was a kid you would still encounter people believing what he believed about English bloodlines in New England. And when my grandfather was young, some of Lovecraft's views were socially enforced. For example in the Diamond District in Lynn, Italians weren't allowed. He had many stories of 'being kicked out by Yankees'. That kind of ethnic racism was really common in New England at that time (and when I was young Ethnicity was still really important). He was also a boxer in the 30s and 40s, before the war, and I have copies of his boxing license where "complexion" was listed (and his complexion was listed as medium).

I do think Lovecraft stands out a bit more than Howard, but it also isn't as malignant as other forms of racism that were widespread and mainstream at the time (like the way black people were being oppressed, at times violently). I think if you look at what was going on in America and Europe in those times, it is very obvious these were views that were much more widespread, even mainstream at the time. I am not saying in literature there aren't lots of figures who stand out in disagreement (I would expect that as the arts often attract people who are contrarian and forward thinking). But in terms of the world they lived in, it was a very racist time period. Again, we are talking about a time when segregation was the law in many southern states. When scientific racism was an accepted norm in many universities, and when we had presidents who embraced it. I don't see how one can see how racist and oppressive the US was in the 20s and 30s, yet consider Howard and Lovecraft to be outliers on race.

Again, I have no issue with people calling either of them racist (or for that matter saying they don't think they were racist, or their views evolved to the point of not being racist). I say let people read teh stuff and decide for themselves what to think. But I do have an issue with people warping the history, to make it sound like the times they were living in were less racist. This is one of the most racist periods in US history

 

[overgeeked]

As much as I enjoy REH's works, they contain some deeply racist elements, full stop. Far more overtly than Tolkien's writings.

Yeah. It’s not even debatable in good faith. If you have the eyes or ears to have consumed a Robert E. Howard Conan story, you’ve encountered racism. It’s like questioning whether H. P. Lovecraft was racist. Yes, he was. Full stop. No, not “so was everyone else at the time” levels of racism. Lovecraft was so racist even other racists told him he was taking it too far and should relax a little. REH wasn’t as racist as Lovecraft, but REH was still pretty damned racist and it clearly shows through his work.

 

[Mannahnin]

Yeah. It’s not even debatable in good faith. If you have the eyes or ears to have consumed a Robert E. Howard Conan story, you’ve encountered racism. It’s like questioning whether H. P. Lovecraft was racist. Yes, he was. Full stop. No, not “so was everyone else at the time” levels of racism. Lovecraft was so racist even other racists told him he was taking it too far and should relax a little. REH wasn’t as racist as Lovecraft, but REH was still pretty damned racist and it clearly shows through his work.

It does vary in degree a great deal from story to story and based on the setting.

A story like Tower of the Elephant might not have any clear signs of it. As opposed to all the Solomon Kane stories set in "darkest Africa", which are inundated with it.

 

[Mind of tempest]

What was very funny was seeing Elminster in art from that period go from being "Basically Gandalf" (an appearance Greenwood seems to also aspire to) to suddenly this Connery-esque deal.

Like, 1E/2E Elminster:

View attachment 398626

3E Elminster (and this isn't even the sexiest one):

View attachment 398625

But we're now in 5E back to, mostly Gandalf/Actual Greenwood:

View attachment 398628

Though there are also 5E "Steroid Santa" depictions, disturbingly:

View attachment 398627

maybe he always looks the same; he just some times chooses to grow out his beard?

 

[RhaezDaevan]

I don’t think there’s a problem with reading Howard or Lovecraft; I really don’t think anyone is advocating not to. I enjoy reading Lovecraft because his writing was incredibly evocative and the distance between his era and mine helps me get past the racist aspects of his works. I can compartmentalize them much better than if I were to decide to sit down and read JK Rowling today and compartmentalize how I feel about her.

There were some earlier in this discussion, not giving names, that made it seem like they thought there was something wrong with people wanting to read REH or HPL when there's other options for those genres. It sounded like the thinking that leads to calls for book burning to me. I personally don't see any issue with enjoying works with problematic elements.

 

[Bedrockgames]

maybe he always looks the same; he just some times chooses to grow out his beard?

I always use to hear people say Elminster is Greenwood and Faerun is Canada. Not sure how true that is as I never checked the maps together

 

[overgeeked]

It does vary in degree a great deal from story to story and based on the setting.

A story like Tower of the Elephant might not have any clear signs of it. As opposed to all the Solomon Kane stories set in "darkest Africa", which are inundated with it.

Yes. That’s true. If you only read one Robert E. Howard Conan story you might luck out and get a non-racist yarn. Having read most (maybe all?) of his Conan stuff, I’d suggest that’s like playing Russian Roulette with six in the chamber and getting a misfire.