D&D General No One Reads Conan Now -- So What Are They Reading?

Not a fan of Calvin and Hobbes, then? Cartoons can contain much truth.

I don't. Comic strips as a medium were never really that big for me (I didn't like comics or graphic novels either which is why I am not a huge super hero movie fan). We got the funny times and I would read some of those, but stuff like Calvin and Hobbes was not my cup of tea (nothing against it, I just never got into it)

While we can talk about the presentation of arguments about individual works, those discussions do not enlighten us on "the industry" as a whole. The point about the entire genre narrowing from a publishing standpoint is a different kind of question, one that we should, at least in theory, be able to measure, rather than rely on feelings.

Do you care to be more clear about what you think "the industry" is, what it means for it to "narrow", and what your basis for the impression might be?

To me, the industry isn't narrowing if works of various outlooks are still making it to the public - books get published, visual media makes it to screens, and so on. Critics and social media responses are not "the industry".

So, as I said - Correia and his like are still getting published, alongside authors with quite differing viewpoints. How is that "narrowing"?

@The Firebird answered much of this but I would add that it is pretty obvious when you look at the kinds of things publishers were asking for submissions on. And the kinds of public conversations publishers were having. That doesn't mean there weren't exceptions. But it has also been much bigger than publishing. People can examine this and decide for themselves. I am not super concerned about convincing them this is all true. It is in my view blindingly obvious though.

I was just trying to make the point that the critique leveled initially by Correia had some merit and reflected something that was occurring across the arts. Most of the arts have been affected by this. At the same time I don't think it is as important now as it was two or three years ago, since there is clearly a weakening of the PC clamp I had mentioned. My bigger concern is really the pendulum swinging the other way (like I said earlier I find some of the reactions to this stuff to be just as stifling, and in many cases worse). I don't like puritans from either camp.
 

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. I have not bought a book from a physical store
I think that's true of pretty much everyone on the planet. Amazon has a virtual monopoly, and physical bookstores are closing down. This trend actually started before Amazon, when supermarkets started selling popular titles.

Not many people read fiction novels, and when they do it's usually from the Bestseller list. Running a bookstore is not a path to profit. Now, with digital sales, even the second hand market is disappearing.
 
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Just sort the Moorcock Elric bibliography by Publishing Order instead of by Internal Chronology. Start at the beginning by picking up The Dreaming City and go from there.

Okay, I will try to make a point of getting the Dreaming City.

As a few folks have pointed out, the Hugos specifically are a fandom vote. So it's not the tastes of critics specifically that the Sad Puppies were mad about, but their fellow fans.

Sure, I am not super into the Hugos, so I am not saying anything about the voting. I do think as a fan of fantasy there was definitely a shift going on around that time you could feel, and I know when I read Ancillary Justice, which was fine, I was scratching my head that it won a Hugo (but I am not someone who is involved in conventions at all so I have no clue how any of the Hugo voting works). Whether it was coming from critics or maybe even the fanbase itself, there seemed to be a shift and splintering around these kinds of things at that time

Card was indeed great for those first three Ender books, '85, '86, '91. Damn shame how he turned out as a human being later.

I quite liked Card up into the early 2000s (at which point his writer seemed to just be much weaker). Also while I have no problem with writers, especially in science fiction, exploring political themes. I felt like the themes in Empire especially, just seemed like he had been watching cable news and wrote a book about it. I'm totally fine with conservative themes. It wasn't that. It just felt kind of lazy (I was more interested in the 24 Influence than the political themes, which wasn't a great sign).

I have attention span issues now, as I think I lot of us suffer from. In recent years I've enjoyed some old pulp classics and some newer stuff like Jemisen, but I don't make enough time for novels in general. :/

I still read novels, but I publish and so a lot of what I read is dictated by what project I am working on. Also I am usually much more interested in other genres these days, like wuxia. So if I am going to read something on the pulpy side, it is typically going to be a wuxia novel
 

The people I encounter who read fantasy fiction these days, seem to mostly be reading not books, but webnovels. Often translated from Chinese. Some of them are pretty fun, but the genre is quite different than D&D.

And, of course, I would say Anime, Videogames, and Movies are bigger influences on younger players than any reading, and then for reading, probably mostly manga and "webtoons" rather than webnovels light novels, or novels.
 

Going in and looking at fantasy display shelves has always been "hot sellers right now!" unless the store has employees following the genre or it being a specialist shop. I'd say the difference there is that previously you were probably just more in tune with what was selling. There's no shame or value judgement in this, there's still great books. One just have to look for them.

As for the "splintering" was that more women regularly was nominated and won, and that one of them had the audacity to win over Carreia in the year he had decided he wanted to win an award for his monster hunter books with long weird 2nd amendment rants in them. He's a bestseller in his niche but it sure doesn't have crossover appeal. (Many of his fellow puppies has since gotten dropped by Baen for terrible sales.)

But women and people of colour getting attention for awards and winning was the big shift around 2014. Because contentwise, I don't see big shifts there from today and going back to the 2000s except perhaps for fantasy yielding a bit for science fiction again.
 
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For me it is just more about being honest about your age. I don't think something new automatically is bad. But I think there is something sad about an old man trying to act like he enjoys the hip new thing, when it is clear he doesn't. When I was in high school if my dad came in my room and said "That Obituary song Chopped in Half" is pretty cool, I'd be very suspicious lol
Wow. I could not be more opposite.

I go out of my way to try new things, especially when it comes to art. If my first reaction is "this sucks," I try to ask myself whether it is just bad or rather just not what I am used to. If the latter, I try to figure it out.

I think it is super important, especially as we age, to challenge our comfort zones. Otherwise I'll just be another grumpy old guy complaining about how things should be more like they used to be. You know, one of those people that we used to roll our eyes at because they were complaining about us.

As a proud Gen Xer, I find it hilarious when folks in my cohort start complaining about the youth, as if films like Slacker and Clerks weren't made by and about us. Our signature music album is literally called Nevermind.

There is so much awesome new fantasy that we are spoiled for choice. It's not just Tolkien knock-offs and bare-chested barbarians these days.
 

But women and people of colour getting attention for awards and winning was the big shift around 2014. Because contentwise, I don't see big shifts there from today and going back to the 2000s except perhaps for fantasy yielding a bit for science fiction again.

I don't really see women or other groups winning were a big issue for most people. Plenty of women writers have won Hugos, going back decades, like Ursula Le Guin and Kate Wilhelm. I think people often throw this up to block criticism of the PC stuff, but I see these as two very separate issues (and I do believe there are still fans who probably have issues with this, but I don't think they are large segment of the fandom). The genre was basically started by a woman. And in the 90s, when I was probably reading the most of current stuff on the shelves, most of the books I was reading at that time were written by women (especially since I read a lot of horror and they had a very large footprint in that genre). A quick perusal shows the following winners by year:

Ursula Le Guin, 1970
Ursula Le Guin, 1975
Kate Wilhelm, 1977
Vonda N. McIntyre, 1979
Joan D. Vinge, 1981
C.J. Cherryh, 1982
Lois McMaster Bujold, 1991
Lois McMaster Bujold, 1992
Connie Willis, 1993
Lois McMaster Bujold, 1995
Connie Willis, 1999
JK Rowling, 2001
Lois McMaster Bujold, 2004
Susanna Clarke, 2005
Connie Willis, 2011
Jo Walton, 2012

That is all before you even get to people like Leckie.

We have been getting more people from different backgrounds and I think that is good
 

Wow. I could not be more opposite.

I go out of my way to try new things, especially when it comes to art. If my first reaction is "this sucks," I try to ask myself whether it is just bad or rather just not what I am used to. If the latter, I try to figure it out.

I think it is super important, especially as we age, to challenge our comfort zones. Otherwise I'll just be another grumpy old guy complaining about how things should be more like they used to be. You know, one of those people that we used to roll our eyes at because they were complaining about us.

Well I am a very contrarian Gen Xer @Clint_L and thus content with my grumpy old man status :)

Actually the truth is, at a certain point I just started to realize I wasn't connecting as much to newer things that came out. All these issues we are discussing aside, it is like a gene went off in my body and I realized I wasn't into what the young people are into.

As a proud Gen Xer, I find it hilarious when folks in my cohort start complaining about the youth, as if films like Slacker and Clerks weren't made by and about us. Our signature music album is literally called Nevermind.

I don't have any issue with young people. I just think we grew up very differently and cultivated very different sensibilities around media that is starting to show up in newer movies as those are naturally made more for a young audience.

When it comes to the 90s, I was a little bit out of step with things. I was not listening to never mind, and I have still never seen slackers lol. My signature music albums were literal Black Sabbath records from my uncle's stash, the Doors, Queen, Iron Maiden, Metallica, and stuff on the heavier end like Cathedral, Solitude Aeturnus and Morbid Angel. Most of the stuff I liked in the 90s was pretty uncool at the time, and grunge made zero sense to me (my dad probably had hipper taste than me because he was at least listening to Tori Amos and Susanne Vega). For me the rise of grunge meant Ozzy wasn't on the charts anymore. I did see clerks That was a good movie. But I also realize it wasn't Citizen Cane. My favorite film from the 90s was Goodfellas. But I probably spent most of my time watching things like Nightbreed.

With movies I see things once in a while that are new, which I like. But it is rare. I quite liked Legend of the Demon Cat (that came out in 2017, which I know isn't super recent but for me, that is yesterday). I liked the Witch and Late Night with the Devil. I also enjoyed RRR a lot. And Dredd was good. The John Wick movies hold my attention.

There is so much awesome new fantasy that we are spoiled for choice. It's not just Tolkien knock-offs and bare-chested barbarians these days.

And if you are enjoying it, more power to you. Again, like I said before, I am wary of constraint from either direction. So my criticism isn't saying we should subtract things. I agree we are spoiled for choice. That can't be denied. And I am somewhat overstating things, as you've probably noticed I will still be curious enough to read the very things I am complaining about. It is almost overwhelming sometimes.

I'm not even typically reading classic fantasy these days. If I read something classic it is more likely to be gothic horror, Shakespeare, something like the Divine Comedy. But typically the genre I prefer now is wuxia, and most of that is in translation. It is a somewhat more old fashioned genre these days, so many of the novels I read in it would be from the 50s and 60s, but a lot of of this stuff wasn't widely available in English until you had fan translations on the internet (there were things in previous decades but they were kind of rare and some of them not the best translations). A big one I always push, and I think you might like it as the translation of it is very good, is the Condor Heroes series (which St. Martin's Press put out). It is actually a trilogy, but each book in the series if broken into four volumes. And they have only officially translated the first book, Legend of Condor Heroes, and the first volume of the second, Return of Condor Heroes. However of all are available online as fan translations. If you like being challenged, it is an interesting genre to try delving into. The first book in that series is called A Hero Born in the English translation (and I believe the translator was Anna Holmwood). I like the translation. Some people objected to how she translated some of the names, but I didn't mind)
 


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