WotC Mike Mearls: "D&D Is Uncool Again"

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In Mike Mearls' recent interview with Ben Riggs, he talks about how he feels that Dungeons & Dragons has had its moment, and is now uncool again. Mearls was one of the lead designers of D&D 5E and became the franchise's Creative Director in 2018. He worked at WotC until he was laid off in 2023. He is now EP of roleplaying games at Chaosium, the publisher of Call of Chulhu.

My theory is that when you look back at the OGL, the real impact of it is that it made D&D uncool again. D&D was cool, right? You had Joe Manganiello and people like that openly talking about playing D&D. D&D was something that was interesting, creative, fun, and different. And I think what the OGL did was take that concept—that Wizards and this idea of creativity that is inherent in the D&D brand because it's a roleplaying game, and I think those two things were sundered. And I don’t know if you can ever put them back together.

I think, essentially, it’s like that phrase: The Mandate of Heaven. I think fundamentally what happened was that Wizards has lost the Mandate of Heaven—and I don’t see them even trying to get it back.

What I find fascinating is that it was Charlie Hall who wrote that article. This is the same Charlie Hall who wrote glowing reviews of the 5.5 rulebooks. And then, at the same time, he’s now writing, "This is your chance because D&D seems to be stumbling." How do you square that? How do I go out and say, "Here are the two new Star Wars movies. They’re the best, the most amazing, the greatest Star Wars movies ever made. By the way, Star Wars has never been weaker. Now is the time for other sci-fi properties", like, to me that doesn’t make any sense! To me, it’s a context thing again.

Maybe this is the best Player’s Handbook ever written—but the vibes, the audience, the people playing these games—they don’t seem excited about it. We’re not seeing a groundswell of support and excitement. Where are the third-party products? That’s what I'd ask. Because that's what you’d think, "oh, there’s a gap", I mean remember before the OGL even came up, back when 3.0 launched, White Wolf had a monster book. There were multiple adventures at Gen Con. The license wasn’t even official yet, and there were already adventures showing up in stores. We're not seeing that, what’s ostensibly the new standard going forward? If anything, we’re seeing the opposite—creators are running in the opposite direction. I mean, that’s where I’m going.

And hey—to plug my Patreon—patreon.com/mikemearls (one word). This time last year, when I was looking at my post-Wizards options, I thought, "Well, maybe I could start doing 5E-compatible stuff." And now what I’m finding is…I just don’t want to. Like—it just seems boring. It’s like trying to start a hair metal band in 1992. Like—No, no, no. Everyone’s mopey and we're wearing flannel. It's Seattle and rain. It’s Nirvana now, man. It’s not like Poison. And that’s the vibe I get right now, yeah, Poison was still releasing albums in the ’90s. They were still selling hundreds of thousands or a million copies. But they didn’t have any of the energy. It's moved on. But what’s interesting to me is that roleplaying game culture is still there. And that’s what I find fascinating about gaming in general—especially TTRPGs. I don’t think we’ve ever had a period where TTRPGs were flourishing, and had a lot of energy and excitement around them, and D&D wasn’t on the upswing. Because I do think that’s what’s happening now. We’re in very strange waters where I think D&D is now uncool.
 

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So, if they sell a copy of the PHB on DDB, which, I'd point out, they sell Tasha's there as well, it doesn't count as a sale? Seriously?
no, no idea how you arrived at that… of course it is a sale, otherwise the PHB would not have outsold Tasha’s. Remember, fewer book sales but more digital sales (DDB and VTTs) is why the new PHB is the better selling product without being the better selling (printed) book. This only works if digital sales count as sales

As to understanding me correctly, my theory is that WotC intentionally used the term product rather than book to hide the fact that the new PHB did not outsell Tasha’s when it comes to book sales. If they had been able to (also) claim it is the best selling book they would have done so.
If you rather have them use the two terms interchangeably and accidentally put product in the press release be my guest, I don’t think it is probable but we have no solid evidence either way
 

no, no idea how you arrived at that… of course it is a sale, otherwise the PHB would not have outsold Tasha’s. Remember, fewer book sales but more digital sales (DDB and VTTs) is why the new PHB is the better selling product without being the better selling (printed) book. This only works if digital sales count as sales

As to understanding me correctly, my theory is that WotC intentionally used the term product rather than book to hide the fact that the new PHB did not outsell Tasha’s when it comes to book sales. If they had been able to (also) claim it is the best selling book they would have done so.
If you rather have them use the two terms interchangeably and accidentally put product in the press release be my guest, I don’t think it is probable but we have no solid evidence either way
The question I have is do they count the digital sales of the older books when making the comparison between the old and new?
 

way to miss the point
My friend I’m not really sure what this discussion is about.
Products, books, widgets or whatchyamakallits….meaningless distinctions since the company doesn’t release detailed information.

Most of the RPG material I buy comes from 3rd party producers off of kickstarter. WotC is just background noise for me.

WotC shot itself in the foot with the OGL (I can’t believe I’m bringing this up). I spend hundreds of dollars on 5e material every year and WotC doesn’t see a dime regardless of if it’s a book or a product or a beverage or a drink.

So while everyone quibbles over semantic distinctions….other people are making a nice living off of D&Ds coat tales.

I do love to ramble.
 


My friend I’m not really sure what this discussion is about.
Products, books, widgets or whatchyamakallits….meaningless distinctions since the company doesn’t release detailed information.

Most of the RPG material I buy comes from 3rd party producers off of kickstarter. WotC is just background noise for me.

WotC shot itself in the foot with the OGL (I can’t believe I’m bringing this up). I spend hundreds of dollars on 5e material every year and WotC doesn’t see a dime regardless of if it’s a book or a product or a beverage or a drink.

So while everyone quibbles over semantic distinctions….other people are making a nice living off of D&Ds coat tales.

I do love to ramble.
Veering away from the OP's topic but I've always viewed the OGL as a gift to the community. Like a free, open source infrastructure layer for creativity to build on.

I'm thankful for that, even if I suspect it was hardly the intention at the time.
 

Ah, interesting that we’re getting back to discussing sales again. I haven’t heard anyone outside of this thread today say WotC is claiming it is the best selling book. I might be wrong about that and I’ll be willing to change my opinion with a cite but all I’ve heard is that it’s the best selling product.

And that means they are counting Beyond sales for it. And I don’t consider that remotely similar to a book where you need to print, ship, and store a real physical product. With Beyond you get access to sections of the book that you can read on a browser or your phone. And when Beyond is gone? You have nothing. And that comes with a monthly fee. No, to me they are not the same thing at all.

Maybe the new PHB sold more books than every other one in history, as I’ve said I haven’t heard that claim but I’ve been wrong before. I’ll just say that Beyond or Foundry sales (and that includes me) are not the same thing to me.
 
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Veering away from the OP's topic but I've always viewed the OGL as a gift to the community. Like a free, open source infrastructure layer for creativity to build on.

I'm thankful for that, even if I suspect it was hardly the intention at the time.
My take very oversimplified take on it is at inception it was a way for Wizards to ensure there was enough content for the game in the early days to build the brand so to speak, and the scandal was about taking it away as they wanted as much revenue as possible now that they didn't feel the need for 3PP support.
 

The problems I have with Meals post are two fold.

1. Complaining about "participation trophies" in a cooperative story-telling game feels really out of whack. Isn't the only WIN in D&D the participation itself. If we wanted competitive games we would be playing board games like Settlers or Wingspan. It feels like it misses the entire market for TTRPGs, which I'm pretty sure is based on hanging out with friends and socializing, in what ever form the group enjoys. Also look at your market, pretty sure most people playing D&D were the folks that received "participation trophies" (not intent as a dig, I know many good athletes that also enjoy D&D).

2. I get really rather annoyed with the myth that "parents" invented participation trophies for their entitled children. The history is far more complex. It had long become a problem in the 80s and 90s that young children, those that were not athletic, would quit sports before puberty. Some of those kids underwent profound physical changes, that would have made them more athletic but stayed away. Sadly, it is still a real problem in US sports today, and growing worse. There are a number of studies showing participation in team sports can be socially beneficial. However, the win at all cost mind set has never been one of those positives.

The point being TTRPGs can and should be a healthy social alternative, but condescending comments about "slop" doesn't help bring in more participation; which absolutely should be everyone's goal, whether as a designer, DM, player, or fan.
 

DDB copies of the PHB, VTT copies of the PHB


no, the printed books, DDB licenses and VTT licenses combined outsold what Tasha’s sold across these lines after release. That is the product vs product comparison, as opposed to printed books where Tasha’s still outsold the 2024 PHB, in my interpretation, which also aligns with Tasha being on some bestseller lists longer and at higher ranks than the new PHB
Back in September a few weeks after it came out they claimed it was the fastest selling product surpassing Tasha. And I personally don't think how the book was sold matters.

It does not matter anymore anyway, as of the Q4 report the new PHB and DMG are the best selling D&D books now. And any statements they make are independently audited as they are required to be truthful in those reports.
 

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