D&D General Limiting Utility Cantrips

[Distracted DM]

At first level, it's only 4. It's only when you hit level 5 that it becomes 6/SR. It isn't until you hit level 9 that it becomes any higher, at which point limiting cantrips doesn't seem like it's that big a thing. Not sure why you thought it would be 6 to start with?

And, again, I'm not really seeing how this ISN'T limiting. Any cantrip that requires concentration is already going to be pretty harshly limited, especially since taking short rests is such a huge ask (a full hour of doing functionally nothing at all is a pretty steep cost!) That's six and only six mage hands, and given most groups never take more than two short rests a day (and sometimes less), that means a maximum of 12 mage hands in an entire day.

Limiting it down to PB/sr is extremely limiting. Now you get two lights, two, and then you're out, until you spend a whole hour doing nothing. Six total for an entire day until you hit level 5.

I went with 6 because 5-10 is the core gameplay area of 5e, so 3PB seems a good example to plan for

My tables tend to take ~2-3 short rests per long rest, so having ~15 mage hands per long rest seems pretty reasonable. The whole purpose behind this is to introduce more choices to make and curtail the unlimited use of utility cantrips

 

[Clint_L]

Cantrips were originally introduced because being a low level magic user really sucked in 1e. So they were a way to let characters feel like they were still magical even when they only had one feeble spell slot. And 1e cantrips were really weak!

Now, they basically serve the same purpose but are a lot more powerful. But overpowered? Hmmm...I think a few are, but that suggests that the solution is to nerf the outliers, rather than limit cantrips in general. The latter either leads back to the original problem ("I'm supposed to be magical but I have barely any magic"), or a bunch of extra accounting.

Like, in the example above, is limiting the player to ~15 mage hands per long rest (but more if they need another one bad enough to take another short rest) actually going to solve a serious problem that is happening in a lot of games? Or is it just adding more stuff to keep track of without actually changing much for how most people play the game? If you have a particular problem with mage hand overuse, that sounds like a fairly unique situation that should be handled by that DM, rather than by changing the entire game to be more complicated.

 

[DrJawaPhD]

Like, in the example above, is limiting the player to ~15 mage hands per long rest (but more if they need another one bad enough to take another short rest) actually going to solve a serious problem that is happening in a lot of games? Or is it just adding more stuff to keep track of without actually changing much for how most people play the game? If you have a particular problem with mage hand overuse, that sounds like a fairly unique situation that should be handled by that DM, rather than by changing the entire game to be more complicated.

Totally agree with all these points. Limiting cantrip casts per day just adds needless stuff for players to track and probably doesn't even address whatever the perceived issue is with them in the first place

If you want to run gritty realism DnD but certain cantrips (plus low level spells) negate your gritty realism challenges then you're better off just banning those spells.

 

[Distracted DM]

Cantrips were originally introduced because being a low level magic user really sucked in 1e. So they were a way to let characters feel like they were still magical even when they only had one feeble spell slot. And 1e cantrips were really weak!

Now, they basically serve the same purpose but are a lot more powerful. But overpowered? Hmmm...I think a few are, but that suggests that the solution is to nerf the outliers, rather than limit cantrips in general. The latter either leads back to the original problem ("I'm supposed to be magical but I have barely any magic"), or a bunch of extra accounting.

Overpowered isn't the right word, IMO. But nerfing them.. hm, well I guess if you don't want to get into the nitty gritty of changing each spell then "nerfing" them could be making them 1st level spells as others have suggested.
Honestly, it's not a terrible idea.. they do scale, after all. An attack cantrip ends up being way better than a 1st level attack spell.. 1st level slots always end up getting used for Shield or other high-scale/utility spells.

So that, or roll-to-cast both seem like good options.

Invoking Grod's Law* here- if you limit a cantrip like Light to the point that it can't replace torches, thus forcing people to have torches, nobody is likely to take Light, at which point you may as well have just banned it.

*To summarize, balancing mechanics by making them annoying to use tends to lead to people not engaging with said mechanics in the first place.

OK but Light still doesn't take a hand, unlike a torch. It lasts an hour. It's not concentration. It's going to be better than a torch unless you directly nerf the spell. Limiting the number of uses, though, means that players have to think when the question "who has a torch? How are y'all seeing in the dungeon?" comes up- rather than just "OK yeah Jess cast light on Brent's shield."

Mage Hand has very few consequences for its use- the only limiting factor is the weight that it can affect.

There's no reason for a player to ever not try to push for Guidance's use.

 

[Clint_L]

I don't think basic attack cantrips should be limited. They are just a way of letting casters participate combat in a way that feels on brand, rather than having them have to throw darts like a 1e MU.

I think there is a fairly short list of repeat offenders, with guidance at the head of the class. For these cases, I would nerf the cantrip, perhaps by making it a level 1 spell, or remove it.

Or maybe add a spell component that is inherently limiting. For instance, what if mage hand had a somewhat bulky component that made it difficult or expensive to keep more than X amount readily available? The more I think about it, the more I like this idea - like maybe every use of guidance uses up a small silver holy symbol.

 

[CreamCloud0]

I don't think basic attack cantrips should be limited. They are just a way of letting casters participate combat in a way that feels on brand, rather than having them have to throw darts like a 1e MU.

I think there is a fairly short list of repeat offenders, with guidance at the head of the class. For these cases, I would nerf the cantrip, perhaps by making it a level 1 spell, or remove it.

Or maybe add a spell component that is inherently limiting. For instance, what if mage hand had a somewhat bulky component that made it difficult or expensive to keep more than X amount readily available? The more I think about it, the more I like this idea - like maybe every use of guidance uses up a small silver holy symbol.

i feel like part of the point of cantrips is getting a good number of uses out of them so i wouldn't make the components consumable but i would make them costly and awkward to obtain, like the 100GP jeweled horn or glass eye required to cast Clairvoyance, that's not something you just come across, but it adds an initial barrier to entry so those better cantrips feel like an achievement when the characters finally actually get access to the capability to cast them.

 

[Emerikol]

That was done in 2E with the 1st level spell Cantrip, and it wasn't worth bothering with.

I like having them as extra little tricks you can play around with without eating into the spell economy, but I don't want them to be unlimited in their use.

To me, a cantrip should be unlimited and useful but not overly useful or powerful. Turning your finger into a flame is useful but not super useful.

 

[ezo]

I like going old school so voted make them 1st-level or use 1st-level slots:

Cantrip Infusion. You can expend a 1st-level (or higher) spell slot (no action required) to gain a number of cantrip uses equal to your proficiency bonus (or spellcasting ability modifier???). For each spell level above 1st-level, you gain an additional cantrip use.

With this idea, remove "cantrips known" from classes. You can use any cantrip on your list.

For example, my Wizard with INT 16 spends a 1st-level slot to gain 3 cantrips. I could spend on use on Firebolt, another on Message, and the last on Toll the Dead.

 

[ezo]

To me, a cantrip should be unlimited and useful but not overly useful or powerful. Turning your finger into a flame is useful but not super useful.

I see the logic here but then I wonder what is the point of them??

 

[CreamCloud0]

on the matter of guidance, while it is a problem spell in that it is far too good at what it does, which is assisting skill checks, i do not think it is the same kind of problem spell like those of light and mage hand, as there is no 'problem' that it is directly 'solves' and renders obsolete merely by casting it,