D&D General [rant]The conservatism of D&D fans is exhausting.

[EzekielRaiden]

It's absolutely true. All of it. Those of us playing 2nd ed were easily able to roll with it because we knew the esoteric nature. New players that entered with WOTC versions heard it was much worst than it actually was though. If you knew the paradigm you knew where bonuses and penalties applied

As someone who--technically--had his very first exposure to D&D through 2nd Edition by way of video games using it (3e had only just been published, so I didn't have any of the books or even know it existed)?

No. THAC0 was incredibly difficult to grapple with. Especially because it was even worse than Minigiant said, at least in those deeply-beloved 2e-based games.

Some THAC0 bonuses are +X. E.g., "+5 Holy Avenger" means you decrease your THAC0 by 5.
Some THAC0 bonuses are -X.
Some THAC0 penalties are -X.
And some THAC0 penalties are +X, I specifically remember spells in Baldur's Gate II that referred to a "+N penalty to THAC0".

So at no point, in the entire game, were they ever consistent about how any of this was presented. And I would like to be clear here, I'm no slouch with math. I won't toot my horn beyond saying that in pursuing a physics degree, I took a lot of math classes, and did quite well in them. But THAC0? It has always bamboozled me--and the rampant inconsistency with how it is presented simply made things worse.

Yes, maybe, for those people slowly and carefully initiated into the old ways, THAC0 would be no problem. But it is pretty much unequivocally better that we don't need that level of introduction in order to bring new people into D&D.

 

[Mournblade94]

This is a great post, clear and well-argued.

I agree in the first place that some of the official d&d depictions of orcs have issues. I especially agree with the Vistani. I was shocked by what they published in 2016.

It's wise that WotC has not chosen to go through the old catalogue to determine which depictions exactly are acceptable and a blanket statement is defensible on those grounds.

I agree with your point narrowly, that WotC saying "as the IP holders we must change this" does not imply that other depictions are bad and wrong.

That said, they could have done a better job of making this case. I think its reasonable to expect people who liked the older content to feel, "oh, are you saying that you think I'm a bad person? That my fun is bad and exclusionary?"

And a community that empathized with and wanted to include these people would be more proactive and less tone-deaf in their approach to relations. The perception that WotC doesn't care about/dislikes older gamers may be false, and the orc changes may not be condemning those gamers...but cracking jokes about Thaco the clown, posting that you don't care what grognards think, and the like, don't exactly help.

If we think this perception exists mistakenly, we should take steps to correct it, not double down on the actions causing it.

It's not really WOTC, it was more of the Twitter player base that felt overly zealous in their purging of the Regressive Grognard

 

[AnotherGuy]

What is and isn’t difficult is relative.

I've noticed how this comment only seems to arise when someone says Thaco wasn't difficult.

 

[Staffan]

I remember telling a friend

"The problem isn't Thac0. It's that everything that makes your Thac0 better sometimes goes up, and sometimes goes down, and sometimes it goes up which gives you a number that goes down."

Technically, I don't think there's anything that adjusts THAC0 (other than level/HD). Everything else is expressed as a bonus/penalty to the attack roll.

Now, on the sheets I made myself for 2e, I remember having spaces for adjusted THAC0 for melee, ranged, and thrown attacks (adjusted for Strength, Dexterity, and both), and the weapon table on the sheet also had an adjusted THAC0 (which would also include things like weapon specialization and magic weapons). But that was a convenience I created for my players, not something official. Technically, a 6th level fighter with Strength 18/00, a +2 weapon, and weapon specialization would still have THAC0 15 for being a 6th level fighter, and then add +6 to attack rolls. On my sheet there'd be an adjusted THAC0 of 9, but that wasn't official.

What is more confusing is AC. Let's say you wear chain mail for AC 5. You have Dexterity 16 which gives you a Defensive Adjustment of -2, which you apply to your AC, lowering it to 3. Then you find a ring of protection +1 – now what happens to your AC? Do you apply the +1, increasing it to 4 (is it a cursed ring?)? Or do you decrease AC by 1 to 2? And if so, why are you using the Dex adjustment straight but reverse the ring's adjustment?

Thac0 just was never hard. Ever. If you played D&D then negative AC was the norm. Nobody i knew had a problem with this.

THAC0/descending AC wasn't hard, it was just needlessly confusing. The groups I played with always played a lot of games other than AD&D, and we always thought the whole thing was pretty silly. Then again, we mostly found the idea of armor making you harder to hit was pretty silly in the first place.

 

[mamba]

But companies that are not people really shouldn't. There's too much to lose.

nah, they absolutely should. Stand for the things you want in society, if you don’t, you won’t have that society for long. There are always jerks who try to drag it back to the dark ages and are not afraid to speak their hatred and ignorance loud and proud

 

[KYRON45]

I've noticed how this comment only seems to arise when someone says Thaco wasn't difficult.

I think it’s a fairly universal truth.

 

[dave2008]

But did you get into them because they were changed in ways that improved them for you?

Or because you were at a different time in your life and a different person? Or your group was more open-minded?

Good question! I would have to reflect on that a bit and perhaps reach out to my group. I do know one of the improvements, IMO, from 2e to 5e was the art and graphic design. Most of 2e art and graphic design (and in particular planescape) didn't sit well with me. I would image being an adult with enough disposable income to by a $50 book just for 2 dozen or so monsters 2-3 per year vs being a teenage with allowance money had something to do with it!

Because Spelljammer is basically not changed meaningfully from 2E (imho - the mechanical specifics a bit but not really) - it's a nearly identical setting, but just with less detail. If it's not "objectively worse", it's perilously close to being so.

Well I did say this in my quote: " In most chases I don't really find things have changed much..." So I agree with you. This is one I can remember: we have never really been interested in the D&D in space feel Spelljammer gave us (then or now). I was definitely speaking more to planescape and ravenloft.

 

[Bae'zel]

Yes, maybe, for those people slowly and carefully initiated into the old ways, THAC0 would be no problem. But it is pretty much unequivocally better that we don't need that level of introduction in order to bring new people into D&D.

You see, in the good ol' days, new D&D players had to EARN the right to play. You know, to weed out certain "types".

As someone who was bullied a lot as a kid, the very meanest people I ever met were in the nerd and geek crowd.

 

[AnotherGuy]

I think it’s a fairly universal truth.

It is but I've seen plenty posts where posters say Thaco was hard or complex and no one felt the need to tell them its relative, I guess only one side needs to hear this universal truth.

 

[Mournblade94]

I dunno, it's kind of hard to take someone seriously about feeling insulted by an NPC in an adventure book while they're calling the modern iteration of D&D Legends and Lattes. Nobody stormed the offices of WotC and forced them to change the game, things just change over time. Sometimes change is good, sometimes change is bad, but it is inevitable.

I don't like modern D&D either (abet for presumably different reasons). But I'm fine with one company in an entire marketplace no longer catering to my preferences. I have literally dozens of other options that suit me better in various ways on my bookshelf (physical and digital) right now, and I'm discovering more every day.

WOTC using the clown wasn't offensive. It was the Nutty Twitter users that used it as an insult that was.

I have my preferences and I don't apologize for them. I'm in 5e for the longhaul due to my daughter growing with it. I just prefer my dwarves to be warriors and not Greenich Village NY muffin bakers. If I'm going to play it I want it more to my tastes.

My daughter at 11 at least claims to be LGBT. I am fine with including LGBT descriptions but they don't have to be modern street performing bards and dwarves that subverting expectations.

5e was great just about until Tasha's came out in my opinion. Fortunately my daughter and her friends have no desire to play 5.5e. Though I did by my daughter the 5.5 DMs guide because other than the lame art bits it's good for beginners.