D&D General Sandbox and/or/vs Linear campaigns

[Endie]

It is better if you want a more pure sandbox game where nobody says any details.

The player-dm does not get to ask the players of characters questions: they just keep quiet and do as they are told. The sword is where the players want it to be or where the game rules or fiction or chance want it to be.


True somewhat. Though my point is very few player-dm's that run sandboxes make up very much of a world. A couple lines, maybe. But often not too much.

And their reaction is Linear or sandboxy.


Well, Quantum Sandbox might be a better term or even Qunatiumania.

Every post you make seems to suggest that you think that sandbox games are necessarily hyper-collaborative and wholly reflexive, with what you refer to as a “player-dm” fully participating in a radically non-privileged way in the game, as the players shape the world by making assertions about it that have to be authoritative or else the game is a linear one.

Your position is not a matter of sandbox vs linear: yours is purely an assertion about playstyle. I have no doubt whatsoever that this free-form, collaborative world-building is some variation of a sandbox but your mistake is that you think that all sandboxes are like that. Your set theory is messed up, and your Venn diagrams are inverted.

 

[bloodtide]

Every post you make seems to suggest that you think that sandbox games are necessarily hyper-collaborative and wholly reflexive, with what you refer to as a “player-dm” fully participating in a radically non-privileged way in the game, as the players shape the world by making assertions about it that have to be authoritative or else the game is a linear one.

Okay?

Your position is not a matter of sandbox vs linear: yours is purely an assertion about playstyle. I have no doubt whatsoever that this free-form, collaborative world-building is some variation of a sandbox but your mistake is that you think that all sandboxes are like that. Your set theory is messed up, and your Venn diagrams are inverted.

I always say 'most' or 'nearly' to be clear.

I guess you could post your sandbox style game. I'd guess it would be close to my examples.

 

[zakael19]

Okay?

I always say 'most' or 'nearly' to be clear.

I guess you could post your sandbox style game. I'd guess it would be close to my examples.

Is an OSR hex crawl a sandbox game to you?

 

[Crimson Longinus]

@bloodtide I don't think you know what "sandbox" means. It definitely doesn't mean that the game world is player authored (or even co-authored) quite the opposite. The GM creates an expansive and detailed world (the proverbial sandbox) for the players to play in. The player freedom comes in the form of deciding what to engage with and what goals to pursue, not in the form of setting authorship.

 

[zakael19]

@bloodtide I don't think you know what "sandbox" means. It definitely doesn't mean that the game world is player authored (or even co-authored) quite the opposite. The GM creates an expansive and detailed world (the proverbial sandbox) for the players to play in. The player freedom comes in the form of deciding what to engage with and what goals to pursue, not in the form of setting authorship.

I think that "collaborative world building"can absolutely be. part of sandbox gameplay, but it's certainly not the totality or even most common by a long shot!

 

[Reynard]

@bloodtide I don't think you know what "sandbox" means. It definitely doesn't mean that the game world is player authored (or even co-authored) quite the opposite. The GM creates an expansive and detailed world (the proverbial sandbox) for the players to play in. The player freedom comes in the form of deciding what to engage with and what goals to pursue, not in the form of setting authorship.

I don't think the world needs to be "expansive and detailed" for it to be a sandbox. You can have a small sandbox, and you can have one that it procedurally or randomly generated. They key is player agency.

 

[bloodtide]

Is an OSR hex crawl a sandbox game to you?

A hex crawl is almost always Linear. But sure you can Sandbox any game.

@bloodtide I don't think you know what "sandbox" means. It definitely doesn't mean that the game world is player authored (or even co-authored) quite the opposite. The GM creates an expansive and detailed world (the proverbial sandbox) for the players to play in. The player freedom comes in the form of deciding what to engage with and what goals to pursue, not in the form of setting authorship.

Yes...okay...this is what is always said. So:

Okay a DM creates a massive game world.. So the game starts at 6PM. At 6:01 the players pick a goal or something to do. Okay....so....at 6:02 after the players have made their pick in the "the amazing sandbox", is the game STILL a sandbox? How? Why?

Like say the players look at the sandbox map and say "we go to the dungeon of Kassth. So the PCs travel to that location and go through a dungeon adventure. So is that all a "sandbox game" just as they players had the freedom for a second to pick "anything" to do?

I don't think the world needs to be "expansive and detailed" for it to be a sandbox. You can have a small sandbox, and you can have one that it procedurally or randomly generated. They key is player agency.

But what agency? The second or two when the players make the decision of what to do during the game?

What other decisions make the sandbox so unique?

 

[Reynard]

But what agency? The second or two when the players make the decision of what to do during the game?

What other decisions make the sandbox so unique?

I honestly have no idea what you are on about here. Your definition of "sandbox" is completely orthogonal to the typical definition. You seem to have this absolutist perspective that if the GM makes up anything at all, suddely the whole thing is a linear railroad adventure from there on out. it makes no sense.

Now, it is possible I am misunderstanding you. If so, please explain. But I would request you do so without hyperbole.

 

[AlViking]

A hex crawl is almost always Linear. But sure you can Sandbox any game.

Yes...okay...this is what is always said. So:

Okay a DM creates a massive game world.. So the game starts at 6PM. At 6:01 the players pick a goal or something to do. Okay....so....at 6:02 after the players have made their pick in the "the amazing sandbox", is the game STILL a sandbox? How? Why?

It's a sandbox if the DM doesn't have a series of steps the players must accomplish in order to achieve their goal. My example was a request for help from a town with multiple NPCs including enemies and allies along with some monsters. I have no expectation that the characters are going to do anything other than presumably talk to the person that was asking for help. After that it's up to them. For that matter, if they get to the town and decide to do something completely different (i.e. the player who decided his character was bored so he just went for a walk) I will start improvising using the existing lore and possible monster groups I had created.

Like say the players look at the sandbox map and say "we go to the dungeon of Kassth. So the PCs travel to that location and go through a dungeon adventure. So is that all a "sandbox game" just as they players had the freedom for a second to pick "anything" to do?

They can decide to talk to the goblin king, infiltrate and try to avoid a fight, go in spells blazing. They could get there and decide to set up an ambush or any other of other activities. Admittedly I don't do "dungeons" per se, if they are going to the ruins of Kassth it's because there's some threat or mystery and I'll have the place populated. How the group interacts with that population is up to them. What won't happen is a series of planned encounters that must be accomplished in order for them to succeed.

But what agency? The second or two when the players make the decision of what to do during the game?

What other decisions make the sandbox so unique?

As others have stated, I don't understand the hostility to the concept of a sandbox. I see a clear difference from what I do and linear campaigns. I don't plan encounters or results of encounters, I plan locales and inhabitants. I have no long term plots even if the NPCs and groups have long term plans of their own, how the players interact with those plans is completely up to the players. What the players do is up to them every step of the way.

 

[mamba]

It is better if you want a more pure sandbox game where nobody says any details.

to me that sounds more like the players having to do random stuff until the DM deems they have done enough of that for the sword to be dropped in front of them rather than the players working towards a goal. In that case I much rather have the latter than what you call a sandbox