D&D (2024) Is it possible to balance the six abilities?

[nevin]

Like vancian casting, the six abilities are a recognizable tradition that works less well.

It is possible to clarify and balance the abilities by adding Athletics and Perception to make eight abilities, or consolidating the eight to four abilities.

• Strength-Constitution
• Dexterity-Athletics
• Intelligence-Perception
• Charisma-Wisdom

Both the eightsome and the foursome work well. It is obvious which ability to use, and which not to use. And each gets used about equally often during gameplay for about equally important things. Making Athletics the go-to ability for swashbuckling campaigns enhances the cinematic excitement. Perception merits its promotion.

But is it possible to make the 'classic' sixsome work well?


I cant yet make the six abilities work well, in terms of avoiding ambiguity (like facilitating agility themes, disambiguating Perception-Investigation, Survival-Nature, and so on) and maintaining balance (like Intelligence being equally valuable as Dexterity).

But there might be a way forward. In 5e, Constitution has evolved into a strictly passive ability. It is responsible for hit points and 'fortitude' saves. It seems possible to update Wisdom into a strictly passive ability, relating mental health in some sense. However I am unsure what its mechanics should be exactly, and how to balance it with the rest of the six abilities.

Hypothetically, the structure for a balanced ability system, might look something like the following:

	Power	Precision	Endurance (Passive)
Physical Abilities	STRENGTH	DEXTERITY	CONSTITUTION
Mental Abilities	CHARISMA	INTELLIGENCE	WISDOM

I think the problem is that different games tend to make different abilities more powerful. A standard textbook D&D game and STR, Con and Dex are the kings of the table, as combat determines everything.


A knowledge and skillbased game and int and wisdom rule.

A game where interaction with the rulers and power players of the game world happens a lot and CHR can be like having unlimited wishes for a mage.

No matter how hard you try to balance things, something is always more powerful in the context of the game and what is the most likely thing to influence events in the game. I've played in games where CHR was the most powerful stat, Game's where skills were the most powerful things and games where perception was the most powerful thing, along with the games where everything was about how fast you could kill things and whether or not you could survive till they all died. What the DM focuses on will determine what is the king stat.

 

[James Gasik]

I've long wanted to ditch the mental ability scores as we know them, definitely Intelligence and Wisdom, because there are so many parts of the system that ask the player to use their own brains to make decisions. Even if you balk at the idea, demanding that players should roleplay how intelligent or wise their characters are, there is absolutely no way to rate how smart someone is based on an ability score.

I couldn't tell you what sorts of plans are possible for someone with 16 Intelligence but not 15. Any judgement calls are completely arbitrary. And the flipside is even worse- if I decide to play a 19 Int Wizard, how the heck can I roleplay that level of Intelligence? I'm not that smart, so I have no idea where to begin. The best I could do is assume metagame knowledge about things that make my character seem more intelligent. Read up on topics of information that I have no way of knowing if my character could possess that kind of knowledge, because that's how I think a super intelligent person would be like?

And Wisdom is even worse- even if you try to make a connection between Int and IQ, there's no way anyone can tell me what's a reasonable Wis 12 course of action and what would require Wis 13 or more.

Some people advocate "roll under stat", but not only does nothing in the modern game use this method to resolve things, it still leaves open an Int 8 character being a tactical genius over 1/3 of the time!

 

[payn]

I've long wanted to ditch the mental ability scores as we know them, definitely Intelligence and Wisdom, because there are so many parts of the system that ask the player to use their own brains to make decisions. Even if you balk at the idea, demanding that players should roleplay how intelligent or wise their characters are, there is absolutely no way to rate how smart someone is based on an ability score.

I couldn't tell you what sorts of plans are possible for someone with 16 Intelligence but not 15. Any judgement calls are completely arbitrary. And the flipside is even worse- if I decide to play a 19 Int Wizard, how the heck can I roleplay that level of Intelligence? I'm not that smart, so I have no idea where to begin. The best I could do is assume metagame knowledge about things that make my character seem more intelligent. Read up on topics of information that I have no way of knowing if my character could possess that kind of knowledge, because that's how I think a super intelligent person would be like?

And Wisdom is even worse- even if you try to make a connection between Int and IQ, there's no way anyone can tell me what's a reasonable Wis 12 course of action and what would require Wis 13 or more.

Some people advocate "roll under stat", but not only does nothing in the modern game use this method to resolve things, it still leaves open an Int 8 character being a tactical genius over 1/3 of the time!

I don’t treat the physical stats any differently. What is 13 str compared to 14? Long ago I stopped trying to quantify the scores and just rely on them as guides. You are good at stuff that have high mods and not so good with low or neg.

As for RP, I don’t police it unless somebody seems way out of line or trying to cheese the system. I haven’t had any issues in many years on that front.

 

[Horwath]

I've long wanted to ditch the mental ability scores as we know them, definitely Intelligence and Wisdom, because there are so many parts of the system that ask the player to use their own brains to make decisions. Even if you balk at the idea, demanding that players should roleplay how intelligent or wise their characters are, there is absolutely no way to rate how smart someone is based on an ability score.

I couldn't tell you what sorts of plans are possible for someone with 16 Intelligence but not 15. Any judgement calls are completely arbitrary. And the flipside is even worse- if I decide to play a 19 Int Wizard, how the heck can I roleplay that level of Intelligence? I'm not that smart, so I have no idea where to begin. The best I could do is assume metagame knowledge about things that make my character seem more intelligent. Read up on topics of information that I have no way of knowing if my character could possess that kind of knowledge, because that's how I think a super intelligent person would be like?

And Wisdom is even worse- even if you try to make a connection between Int and IQ, there's no way anyone can tell me what's a reasonable Wis 12 course of action and what would require Wis 13 or more.

Some people advocate "roll under stat", but not only does nothing in the modern game use this method to resolve things, it still leaves open an Int 8 character being a tactical genius over 1/3 of the time!

This is why I like all 3 mental stats under one.

High Cunning(int+wis+cha) just means that you are good at all things somewhat.

If you want to be considered educated, get proficiency in Arcana, History, Nature, Religion.
If you really want to be considered educated get expertise in one or even all 4 of those skills.

same way for being charismatic, high cunning will help you here sure, but having proficiency in Deception, Persuasion, Intimidation, Perform is a bonus here, larger with expertise.

guess you could sort "mental" skills into:

Academia; Arcana, History, Nature, Religion, Medicine
Practical; Animal handling, Survival, Investigation, Perception, Insight
Social; Deception, Intimidation, Persuasion, Performance,

Cunning would also cover all tools/instruments.

 

[NN]

Meh, the stats are self-balancing. If a stat is less useful less characters will prioritize it giving this that do rarity value and niche utility.

 

[billd91]

Hypothetically, the structure for a balanced ability system, might look something like the following:

	Power	Precision	Endurance (Passive)
Physical Abilities	STRENGTH	DEXTERITY	CONSTITUTION
Mental Abilities	CHARISMA	INTELLIGENCE	WISDOM

I don't think the idea should be to link a mental with a physical, per se. Rather, they can be paired as offense vs defense. Like so:

	Physical	Precision	Mental
Offensive Abilities	STRENGTH	INTELLIGENCE	CHARISMA
Defensive Abilities	CONSTITUTION	DEXTERITY	WISDOM

The defensive abilities are used for all of the saving throws, offense for all of the attacks/damage/setting save DCs. It was 4e that put me on to this idea years ago, but I thought it missed the main mark by allowing players to choose which ones to use for defense which led to rampant but uneven dump-stat-ability for some classes.

 

[payn]

I don't think the idea should be to link a mental with a physical, per se. Rather, they can be paired as offense vs defense. Like so:

	Physical	Precision	Mental
Offensive Abilities	STRENGTH	INTELLIGENCE	CHARISMA
Defensive Abilities	CONSTITUTION	DEXTERITY	WISDOM

The defensive abilities are used for all of the saving throws, offense for all of the attacks/damage/setting save DCs. It was 4e that put me on to this idea years ago, but I thought it missed the main mark by allowing players to choose which ones to use for defense which led to rampant but uneven dump-stat-ability for some classes.

I like it much better than pairing abilities where every character has high x or y giving them z defense. That sort of SAD design I really don’t care for.

 

[The Soloist]

Six is not enough. That is why Fantasy AGE has nine abilities:

• Strength
• Fighting
• Constitution

• Dexterity
• Perception
• Accuracy

• Intelligence
• Communication
• Willpower

 

[GMMichael]

important combat mechanics

This important tidbit was missing from the OP. The Big Six work well enough - unless your game focuses on combat.

Six is not enough. That is why Fantasy AGE has nine abilities

Six is too many. That is why Modos 2 has three attributes:

Physical
Mental
Metaphysical

So your attribute usage comes from what's real, what's in your head, or what's between heads. If you make a fighting character, or play in a combat-heavy game, take lots of Physical. If you play senators battling for the republik, probably Mental. Take Metaphysical if you're trying to run Mage: the Ascension in a different engine.

But what about Comliness? Player choice, along with a host of other abilities.

 

[Tonguez]

I think the 6 stats are fine but their are certain skills that need to be removed or changed.
First I think that Perception needs to be passive only, and that any active searching for things should be handled by Investigate making it a "Observation-Deduction" pair. I also want to add a Intelligence Tactician Skill for the smart fighter to observe the enemy, identify weaknesses and assess maneuvers etc. Tactician could replace Initiative (and thus make Dex less Uber). SO I assigned 3 skills/traits to each Attribute with at least one Uber skill in each, Combat skills are being treated as normal skills as are things like Carrying Capacity and Stamina. Note Endurance now gives Constitution and active use

Strength = Physical Prowess

• Athletics (all movement and power actions)
• Melee Combat skill
• Carrying Capacity (passive)

Constitution = Durability and Toughness

• Endurance (to actively resist exhaustion, fatigue, poison, etc.),
• HP
• Stamina (including death saves)

Dexterity = Agility and Manipulation

• Acrobatics (tumbling, balance, stealth and dodge (including dodge bonus to AC)
• Sleight of Hand (includes tool use, jury-rigging)
• Ranged Attack skill

Intelligence = Observant Loremaster

• Investigation
• Lore (summary of the knowledge skills),
• Tactics (Predict enemy movements, plan ambushes, identify weak points) *Initiative

Charisma = Persuasion

• Persuasion (convince, negotiate, inspire)
• Deception (lie, trick, mislead)
• Performance (entertain, distract, impress)

Wisdom = Survivor

• Insight (read emotions, detect lies)
• Medicine (stabilize wounds, diagnose conditions)
• Survival / Animal Handling (tracking, navigating wilderness, managing animals)