Spoilers Star Wars: Andor season 2

[Celebrim]

Was he?

He was on the planet of children survivors, then with Marva.

Were we shown anything else?

When his adopted father was hung he was arrested for attacking a Storm Trooper. That's how the Empire had an image of him in their database.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

I'm fairly sure the reality is that he was meant to be a Jedi in season 1 just as originally Lyra Erso was meant to be a Jedi in Rogue One, and in both cases Tony Gilroy backed out of that because they wanted to highlight the role of "normal people

Because it is absolutely terrible messaging: “ordinary people don’t need to do anything because the big bad messianic Jedi will always be along to save us.” So it’s just one of the terrible ideas (along with Cassian’s sister and the jungle planet childhood) from season one that were quietly dropped.

So, he is just an ordinary guy who turns out to have a natural talent for manipulation and lying. Just what you want for starting a rebellion, spying, and getting ahead in the antique business.

 

[billd91]

So, he is just an ordinary guy who turns out to have a natural talent for manipulation and lying. Just what you want for starting a rebellion, spying, and getting ahead in the antique business.

Particularly since the antique business, like much of the art business, is just GREAT for laundering money. And that makes it a potentially great resource for funneling resources into insurgencies (as well as distributing bugs around Coruscant like we saw in season 2).

 

[Dire Bare]

Yeah, I get that. Perhaps I and others were (deliberately?) misled by the various clues from season 1. The kyber crystal Luthen used as collateral for Cassian to do the Aldhani job. The walking stick that suspiciously looked like it incorporated a lightsaber hilt. The tricked-out starship with the red lightsaber-like beams. His monologue to Lonni.

He may not have been a Jedi, but he was certainly a man of mystery. Having him be "just" a disillusioned soldier somehow doesn't quite fit. Why did he choose the antiquities trade as cover, and how did he build up the collateral and connections to set up shop in a wealthy section of Coruscant? Was he interested in history and antiquities before becoming a soldier? Was he from a wealthy family?

So many questions!


I'm sure Disney will give us some canonical justification for the discrepancy at some point! Probably in a future visual dictionary or something.

Do we really need answers to all of those questions? Well, I'm good with how Luthen's backstory was developed in the last 3 episodes. I also think it is a strength to the characterization that Luthen was a former soldier who built himself into a "man of mystery".

Clues that Luthen was a Jedi? I felt folks were reaching back in Season 1 on that score.

 

[Celebrim]

Because it is absolutely terrible messaging: “ordinary people don’t need to do anything because the big bad messianic Jedi will always be along to save us.”

If anyone is looking at the Jedi as anything but highly flawed fallible people at this point, then they aren't paying attention. Yoda and Obi Wan are coming off badly by the end of the original trilogy, and the prequels really didn't make it any better.

I thought the character of Luthen fit well with a member of the Jedi Academic or Jedi Exploration Corp, the sort of guy who was force sensitive but never strong enough in the force to become a Knight, and whose real gifts were scholarly and in his understanding of people. Because at this point, the real conclusion is the Jedi are themselves just "ordinary people" who couldn't save the galaxy or even themselves.

So it’s just one of the terrible ideas (along with Cassian’s sister and the jungle planet childhood) from season one that were quietly dropped.

Except it wasn't really. The whole point of Cassian's sister was that when Cassian was lost and the sort of person whom you wouldn't have wanted as a friend, because he was a thief, a lying scoundrel, manipulative, and abusive to even his friends and the people who loved him he still had this drive to save people. And that drive to save people would ultimately become the overwhelming motive in his life, the thing that drove him on and on to his death. He was always trying to save his sister. And so in that context, if you watch Andor Season 2 and Rogue One back to back, it hits differently. When the Guardian of the Whills call Jyn Erso, "Little Sister" it has layers of meaning.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

If anyone is looking at the Jedi as anything but highly flawed fallible people at this point, then they aren't paying attention

If anyone hasn’t noticed that there is a hardcore of Star Wars fandom who refuse to accept the Jedi as anything but flawless paragons, then they haven’t been paying attention.

Then others will argue that since Luthen has done bad stuff, he must have turned to the dark side and be a servant of evil.

And even if you accept that Jedi can be flawed and/or do bad things without being corrupted by the dark side, they still have superhuman magical powers which completely undermines the message that it’s the actions of ordinary individuals that make the difference.

Luthen is based on an amalgam of real word revolutionaries, remembered for their achievements, but who did terrible things in the process. Fabricating their own legend is a common factor for several.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

Clues that Luthen was a Jedi? I felt folks were reaching back in Season 1 on that score

All part of fabricating the legend. To people who might be influenced by such things Luthen planted subtle hints that he might be more than a mere mortal.

 

[Epic Meepo]

There were lots of things that suggested Luthen was a Jedi of some sort, most importantly his monologue to Lonni which now after he's been given a backstory so doesn't fit the character that the most logical explanation is that it was all an act to keep Lonni on board. The truth is, Luthen had given up nothing to become what he was. He'd already lost everything before he started fighting the Empire. He was already a broken man before the rise of the Empire back when the Empire's only atrocities were just cleaning up and suppressing separatist holdouts brutally. The reality given his backstory is that becoming a resistance leader gave his life purpose and meaning that it had lost. He was suicidal before that point, it's not like he had to give up anything to do the job. So he made up something that Lonni would believe in just as a trick to keep Lonni trusting him. Only that makes him despicable and not heroic. It turns him from an anti-hero to an anti-villian - someone who just happens to hate the Empire, not someone who actually loves good.

Luthen's reveals ended up completely undermining who I thought he was as a character. I suddenly became very sympathetic to the Alliance leadership that wanted little to do with him. Murdering Lonni and then turning out to be just a broken disillusioned NCO who embarked on a life of vengeance to somehow redeem himself for his role in the Empire's genocides seemed as you say to not quite fit. The only way to make it fit was make it an act or else to leave out all the really important aspects of his life which is just bad story telling.

Why did a sky kyber crystal have special meaning to him? Why the walking stick he never really uses if it's handle just contains an ornate blade? The red lightsaber like beams aren't really to me a big clue, because we know that Republic gunships use similar lances as anti-personal weapons so they don't have to be Jedi tech. But why is he one of the foremost archaeologists in the Galaxy, if he's just an NCO for crying out loud? People from wealthy scholarly backgrounds rarely end up as enlisted men. How was he able to emulate the elaborate mannerisms of an inner sphere courtier? The background fit so little into what they had shown that it felt to me like it was wrong.

I'm fairly sure the reality is that he was meant to be a Jedi in season 1 just as originally Lyra Erso was meant to be a Jedi in Rogue One, and in both cases Tony Gilroy backed out of that because they wanted to highlight the role of "normal people". And sure, you can do that, but I think you need a better back story as to how this guy was one of the foremost archaeologists and antiquitarians in the entire galaxy than he was just some NCO with PTSD.

I thought Luthen's backstory was masterclass storytelling, precisely because we find out his persona is a complete lie.

The whole time, Luthen's passing himself off as some sort of spymaster/businessman/martyr who's leading the rebellion and then... surprise! Kleya's the real Axis and Luthen is just her front man. He's an Imperial deserter who's only good for lying and planting an occasional bomb. She's a child prodigy who quickly surpasses her mentor in competence and ruthlessness. Heck, Luthen couldn't even kill himself without Kleya's help. Luthen may not think so, but he's the sidekick.

Once you realize that, you can go back and watch all the interactions between Luthen and Kleya throughout the series and see that the dynamics of their relationship are not what they appear to be at first glance

 

[trappedslider]

Good article on Luthen

Andor Quietly Spoiled Luthen Rael's Endgame (& Most Fans Missed It)​

https://www.cbr.com/andor-spoiled-luthen-rael-endgame/

 

[Enevhar Aldarion]

Except it wasn't really. The whole point of Cassian's sister was that when Cassian was lost and the sort of person whom you wouldn't have wanted as a friend, because he was a thief, a lying scoundrel, manipulative, and abusive to even his friends and the people who loved him he still had this drive to save people. And that drive to save people would ultimately become the overwhelming motive in his life, the thing that drove him on and on to his death. He was always trying to save his sister. And so in that context, if you watch Andor Season 2 and Rogue One back to back, it hits differently. When the Guardian of the Whills call Jyn Erso, "Little Sister" it has layers of meaning.

Meh, I still think the lost sister bit was wasted screen time. He also watched his adoptive father murdered by Imps, so his need to save people could have been based on his inability to save him instead.